Vol. 14, Part II · pages 526–530

1306 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES persons it shall not apply. To that there is a proviso. My submission is that in the case of persons who belong to certain tribes which are not altogether Hinduised completely—so that with regard to them we could say that the Hindu Law as such applies to them in the same way as it applies to those who are in fact and in law, de jure and de facto, Hindus—it is only those parts of the Hindu Law which they have adopted that will be regarded as applicable to them and not the whole of the Code. Consequently there need be no fear in the minds of members of those communities which are still in a tribal condition and which follow different ways and different modes and different laws with regard to their marriage and divorce. They are still safeguarded except that if it is proved that they have adopted any particular part of the Hindu Law, it is only to that extent that they will be governed by this Code and not otherwise. My submission is that we have taken every precaution by adding the proviso to sub-clause (2) not to impose the whole of the Hindu Law which will be enacted in Part II upon them. They have still the freedom to go their way except to the extent which has been proivded in this proviso. One other point to which I would like to make a passing reference is the point made by my friend Dr. Pande and my friend Mr. T. N. Singh. They have said, I believe in almost uneqivocal terms, that customs which exist today must be safeguarded and nothing should be done to abrogate them. My friend, Dr. Pande, I believe, is a young graduate; I do not wish to say a raw but a young graduate from the University who probably has yet to study what the institution of Parliament means ………… An hon. Member : He is a professor and a secretary. Dr. Ambedkar : I am very sorry, but he is still ignorant on certain aspects. People talk about customs in the country. Well, why have customs grown ? Why do the Smritikaras allow custom to continue ? I think the answer to that question is to be found in the fact that so far as this country is concerned, there never was such a tiling as a Parliament representing the people, coming here and legislating about their social relationship; there never has been such a thing at all. ( Interruption). I do not know whether we are better or not. The reason, and the principal reason, why custom has been allowed to govern the life of the people in this country and in a manner much more rigorous than is to be found in any other part of the world………… Shri Syamnandan Sahaya: If I am not mistaken the common law in England still prevails although there has been a Parliament for ages.

1307 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL Dr. Ambedkar : I know that he is much more informed on certain subjects than I am. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : Dr. Ambedkar, I have never accepted that you are omniscient and that you have all the knowledge. It may be that in certain matters I may have better information…………. Dr. Ambedkar: I agree that you are. My point is that in view of the fact ………….. Shri Bhatt: I would like to remind the Hon. Dr. as to wherefrom we got the word parishad and how the word Rajya-parishad has come into being. Dr. Ambedkar: That parishad is another thing. Shri Bhatt: That Parishad is another thing. Shri Bhatt: That was nothing but a form of Parishad. Dr. Ambedkar : Parishad is only a Council; it is not a Parliament. it has never been. What other way was left open to the people to regulate their life except to make their own custom, because there’ was no Parliament, there was no Legislature and nothing of the kind ? But when we have got a Parliament, the function of which is to make law, the question that we have to consider and very seriously consider is whether we are going to allow the people as such who are outside the Parliament to have a parallel authority to make their customary laws and the Parliament should have no right to interfere in them. I think, that is a very serious question that we have to consider. It is quite one thing to say that where custom have grown and they are valid customs, in the way in which a valid custom has been defined in clause 2 of this Bill, they should be retained. That is a very different question. But to say that nowhere custom should be altered, amended, changed is really to abrogate the authority of Parliament and I am very doubtful that any such proposition would be accepted by Parliament and that is a matter about which I have considerable doubt and I also go further and say whether Parliament could continue to be that necessary and useful instrument for changing the ways of life for which it has been designed, if the proposition which had been supported by Messrs. Pande and T. N. Singh was accepted, that Parliament should have no jurisdisction with regard to customary laws…….. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Will the Hon. Law Minister take a long time ? Dr. Ambedkar: I am just closing.

1308 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Shri Naziruddin Ahmad : All our points have not been dealt by the Hon. Minister. What becomes of those amendments which we have moved? Would they be expunged ………. Shri T. N. Singh : On a point of personal explanation, The Hon. Law Minister says that I urged that each and every one of the customs should be scrupulously observed. I think that he did not probably understand my Hindi ………… Dr. Ambedkar: It is quite possible. Shri T. N. Singh : What I said was that all customs should not be lightly abrogated by a law. What I want ………. Dr. Ambedkar: On that point, I am in agreement. Shri T. N. Singh: I want to ask if the Hon. Law Minister has got any detailed list of the customs prevalent in the country. In the ignorance of all the customs of the country to say that all customs shall not be applicable, is not proper. That is exactly what I said. Dr. C. D. Pande : One thing has been said, Sir ………. Dr. Ambedkar: You can come to my room and say that. Dr. C. D. Pande : Dr. Ambedkar has said this in Parliament and I wish it should be clarified in Parliament. I did not say that Parliament had no authority to make laws for the customary things. I appealed to Parliament not to touch their laws. That is a quite different position than what the Law Minister makes out. Mr. Deputy Speaker : I shall put the clause and the amendments in this order. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya: Before you put them, Sir I submit it is 1-15 already. As I said, this is a very vital clause where the texts, customs and usages are being abrogated. Therefore, we desire to divide on the amendments that have been moved. It will take a long time. Therefore, I submit that the actual motion may be put on another day whatever it. Some hon. Members : Yes, yes. Some hon. Members : No, no. Dr. Ambedkar: It will not take more than five minutes. Some hon. Members : No, no. Capt. A. P. Singh : There are so many amendments ; it will take four hours (Interruption). Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, order. What is going to be gained ……….

1309 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL Shri Sondhi (Punjab) : There may be division, Sir. Shri Naziruddin Ahmad : We will ask for division at every stage. We want to go by justice and not by arbitrary rules. Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Hon. Member may be certain that justice will be rendered. But, the question is, the House had accepted the closure; the debate is over; the Hon. Law Minister has replied. Pandit Malaviya: The House would have accepted the closure if you had put it five minutes after the debate began. It is the tyranny of the majority that is being forced on us ( Interruption). Shrimati Durgabai (Madras): It is the tyranny of the minority over the majority : not the tyranny of the majority. Shri Naziruddin Ahmad: Tyranny of women. The Minister of State for Transport and Railways (Shri Santhanam): The hon. Member should withdraw his word ; I think it is contempt of Parliament. Some Hon. Members : No, no, no contempt. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Let us not be too sentimental over these matters. After all, Parliament has to go by language and no doubt, it must be moderate. There are in all about eleven amendments. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya: It will take an hour at least. Mr. Deputy Speaker : In view of what has happened, I thought we could get through these amendments quickly. Some hon. Members: No, no. The House then adjourned till half Past Eight of the Clock on Monday, the 24th September, 1951.

1310 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES HINDU CODE—contd. Clause 4.—(Overriding effect of Code ). *The Minister of Law (Dr. Ambedkar): May I submit, Sir, that my motion with respect to clause 4 of the Hindu Code, which was held over, may be put and then the other business may be taken up ? Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Hon. Minister wants preference to be given to that Bill with respect to that part of it. The other day the discussion and reply on the clause was over, but just as I was about to put it to the House Hon. Members said it might take a long time and as it was 1-15 p.m. we had to adjourn. We will now finish it. I will now put the amendment of Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava. The question is : That for clause 4, the following be substituted: “4. Any text rule or interpretation of Hindu Law or any customary usage in force immediately before the commencement of this Code shall have effect with respect to any of the matters not dealt with in this Code.” The motion was negatived. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Now we come to amendment No. 449. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava (Punjab): I beg to withdraw it. The amendment was, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The question is : That in the amendment proposed by the Hon. Dr. Ambedkar, in part (a) of the proposed clause 4, the words “or any custom or usage” be omitted. The motion was negatived Mr. Deputy Speaker : The question is : That in the amendment proposed by the Hon. Dr. Ambedkar, in the proposed new clause 4,— (i) in part (a), after the words “dealt with in this Code” the words “after ten years from the commencement of this code” be inserted ; and (ii) after part (b) the following Explanation be added : “Explanation. —Notwithstanding anything contained in subsection ( a), for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Code, any text, rule or any custom or usage in force, shall have effect.” *P.D., Vol. XV, Part II 25th September 1951, pp. 3278-3301