Vol. 15 · pages 241–245

224 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES *Mr. Speaker : So then, I am afraid, looking at the trend of the discussion, I must put the amendment of Mr. Deshbandhu Gupta to the House. Dr. R. U. Singh : But Sir, my questions have not been answered. I wanted to know two things, What is the basis on which the Legislative Councils will be elected as the populations electing the members will be very low. And secondly, whether the Hon. Minister will be pleased, in view of the points that I had stressed, to reconsider the position. As I said it is intrinsically wrong and this is a hotch-potch arrangement for which there is no justification, I would like to hear what Dr. Ambedkar has to say. Mr. Speaker : Has the Hon. Law Minister followed the point which the hon. member is raising? Dr. Ambedkar : Some hon. members have always felt that I am one of the hardest nuts in the cabinet. I now find the advantage of being a hard nut. To be yielding to all people, all and sundry, lands one in the difficulty in which I find myself now. If I had decided to stick to the original position, probably I might not have been in the difficulty in which I find myself now. But having accepted the position on the assurance, of course, that the elections to these municipal bodies are going to be based upon adult suffrage, I do not think that there was any very great principle involved, in accepting the suggestion made by my friend Mr. Deshbandhu Gupta. Secondly, as hon. Members will see, this scheme may not even come into operation, because in the amendment that I have moved, I have made provision that if Parliament provides by law for the creation of legislative bodies as it is done in other Part B and Part A States, elections then will take place on the basis of the newly created bodies. Having regard to these facts, I am not disposed to attach very great importance to the decision, whether it is taken one way or the other, because I feel that if there is enough pressure and * P. D., Vol. 7, Part II, 21st December 1950, pp. 2236-44.

225PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES if there is enough time, Parliament may be persuaded before the elections come, to take upon itself the responsibility of having legislatures, giving effect to Article 240. Therefore, for the present, what I would insist is that the word “elected” be removed. And probably, I would like that with regard to New Delhi where I understand there is a very large element of nomination, I would restrict the representation of New Delhi to non-official persons. With that I think the House should be content, for the moment. Shri Sondhi : What about the non-official members of other bodies? We should not discriminate between one body and another. Dr. Ambedkar : With regard to other bodies in other Part C States, we need not go into it very much now because we are creating electoral colleges on the basis of.......... Shri Sondhi : I was referring to unofficial members who are nominated to other bodies. The hon. Member referred only to nominated members in New Delhi. We cannot discriminate between them. Dr. Ambedkar : Under the new scheme probably the nonofficial elements will disappear. Mr. Speaker : Let us not carry on the dicsussion any further. Shri Deshbandhu Gupta : The Hon. Law Minister said that the word “elected” should go and be replace by “ nonofficial body” for Delhi and New Delhi. Is that his desire? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, that would simplify the matters. Shri Tyagi : But it has to be made clear that the Law Minister has accepted this on condition and in the hope that the new elections will be on the basis of adult suffrage and that they will be conducted in time for the general elections. We know that in these old boards a large part of the new populations are not represented or reflected at all. Not to give them representation will be very wrong. Shri Kamath : Sir, I would like to bring to your notice that Dr. Ambedkar a little while ago referred to hon. Members

226 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES as “ all and sundry ”. I do not know if it is quite proper. It may not be unparliamentary, but it is not dignified, I believe. So I request you to give your views, if not your ruling on this point. Mr. Speaker : I do not give that expression any vulgar meaning. And he did not mean Members of Parliament. So many people come before the Ministers over this and that, and the words “all and sundry” do not apply solely to Members of Parliament. At any rate no hon. member need think that the cap fits him. Shri B. Das : Sir, the Hon. Health Minister who controls the Delhi Municipal bodies has not been present here to assist us. Could we not decide this question later with her assistance also ? Mr. Speaker : It was not expected that, after informal conferences and after postponing the question for the purpose of the conference, this point will be again discussed. I have been expecting a spirit of give and take, just a little giving in here and there. After all, humanly it is impossible to do absolute justice to everyone. Let us try to do as much justice as we can. And so I proceed further. Now how does the position stand ? Do I put the amendment to the House ? Dr. Ambedkar : It is suggested that instead of the word “elected” we may have the words “Members other than officials”. Shri Deshbandhu Gupta : I accept this change. Mr. Speaker : Let there be no more discussion, but let us get through with the Bill. Otherwise hon. Members will not get sufficient time tomorrow for the other Bills. My difficulty comes now. How am I to put the amendment ? Order, order, let there be less noise in the House. The Minister of Transport and Railways (Shri Gopalaswami) : I would like to suggest to the Law Minister the desirability of omitting the words “such as”. I think we ought to say “Members of Municipal Committees District Board and notified area Committees”. If we put in the words “such as” it would mean as if there were other categories of local bodies in which you want to refer.

227PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES Shri Deshbandhu Gupta : The reason for having those words is, there is the Delhi Improvement Trust. Dr. Ambedkar : But in my copy I do not find the words. Mr. Speaker : Mr. Deshbandhu Gupta may withdraw his amendment and the Hon. Minister may move his amendment. Dr. Ambedkar : I am accepting it with certain modifications, and putting it as sub-clause (5) of article 27-I. Mr. Speaker : Is the hon. Member Deshbandhu Gupta agreeable to this course ? Shri Deshbandhu Gupta : Yes. The amendment was, by leave, withdrawn. Dr. R.U. Singh : Sir, I raised the question of Coorg and it has not been answered. Mr. Speaker : Any Member may raise any question but the Minister need not answer every question. We must now proceed with the business in a reasonable manner as quickly as possible. The Minister is substantially accepting the amendment. Dr. Ambedkar : I propose the amendment of which I have given notice just now. It is purely nominal and consequential and I propose to include Deshbandhu Gupta’s amendment also in my amendment. Mr. Speaker : In the case of these amendments, it is better that we read them. I find a little difficulty because these are not circulated to hon. Members. Therefore, the alternative courses open to us are either the amendments are read in the House or we postpone this clause and take up the next clause and keep this pending. There remains only one clause—clause 11. Then there is a further amendment by Dr. Ambedkar in respect of the schedule. That may be disposed of. Shri Jawaharlal Nehru : Why not have the amendments read out?

228 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Mr. Speaker : After disposal of clause 11 and the amendment of Dr. Ambedkar giving a new clause, the whole ground will be clear and there will remain nothing except the amendments. At this stage, we put this matter just aside for a few minutes— not till tomorrow necessarily. I go to clause 11. Shri Dwivedi (Vindhya Pradesh) : There are some amendments to Clause 11A. Mr. Speaker : That I am just putting off. It is rather unfortunate that hon. Members are engaged in talking and do not follow the proceedings. The question is : “That clause 11 stand part of the Bill”. The motion was adopted. Clause 11 was added to the Bill. New Clause 11A Dr. Ambedkar : I beg to move : After clause 11, insert the following new clause: “11A. Addition of new Fifth Schedule to Act XLIII of 1950.— After the Fourth Schedule to the said Act, the following Schedule shall be added, namely: “THE FIFTH SCHEDULE [See sections 27A(2), 27(a), 27E(1) and 27J(a)] Number of Members of Electoral Colleges Name of State Number of Members 1 2 1. Ajmer ... ... 20 2. Bhopal ... ... 20 3. Bilaspur and Himachal Pradesh ... ... 25 4. Kutch ... ... 20 5. Manipur ... ... 20 6. Tripura ... ... 20 7. Vindhya Pradesh ... ... 50”