Vol. 15 · pages 451–455

434 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Dr. Deshmukh: I wonder whether this is all relevant. Dr. Ambedkar: This Bill was introduced long before the speech was made. Shri J. R. Kapoor : I would not indulge in any irrelevant remarks. I am trying to bring home to hon. Members of this House that this Bill is absolutely unnecessary. The question obviously would arise in the minds of hon. Members as to why an eminent jurist and an eminent lawyer like Dr. Ambedkar should ask us to enact an unnecessary piece of legislation. I have to prove that it is not the necessity or the propriety of this legislation (Interruption) that has made him to come before us but it is some extranecus considerations which are actuating him to come before us... Mr. Chairman : Is it the contention of the hon. Member that this Bill exclusively belongs to Dr. Ambedkar? it is a Government Bill. Shri J. R. Kapoor: Technically speaking, it belongs to the Government but I wonder whether Government or his other colleagues have really applied their minds to this Bill. (Several hon. Members : Oh! Oh!) I am paying a tribute to Dr. Ambedkar that he can easily persuade his colleagues to believe that something like this is necessary and he may persuade them to think—as he must be enjoying their confidence—that they need not so meticulously enter into every little detail of the Bill and they may well depend upon his ability and his prudence. Mr. Chairman : Is not the hon. Member one of those who consented to the introduction of this Bill in the Parliament? Shri J. R. Kapoor: I suppose the convention in this House has always been that no Member should stand to oppose the introduction of a Bill. I for one would be happy if hereafter that convention is to be broken and it will be open to hon. Members of this House to oppose even the introduction of a Bill. Anyway, I hope, Madam, it is not your intention to stop me from proceeding further with my speech merely on the ground that since at that time I had not opposed the introduction of the Bill I cannot speak now to oppose it.

435PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES My submission is that this Bill is merely an election stunt of which the Hon. Dr. Ambedkar wants to take the fullest advantage. He would like us and the world outside to believe that he and he alone has the interest of the Scheduled Castes and Tribes at hearts, so much so that even the Constitutionmakers were not wide awake at that time and other hon. Members of this House who represent the Scheduled Castes and Tribes had never thought of it and that he has now come forward before the House as the saviour of the Scheduled Castes and Tribes with this legislation: and he would wish the world to believe that for the first time the interests of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in Part C States are going to be protected. He has in that speech to which I referred earlier, accused the hon. Scheduled Caste Members of this House of not being vigilant enough to protect the interests of the Scheduled Castes and he would like to arrogate to himself all the credit. I submit, Madam, these are the considerations...... ( Interruptions.) Shri Sonavane : Madam, on a point of order, I would like to know how the reference to the Scheduled Caste members of this House has any relation to the Bill that is before the House. Will not references made outside be out of order? Shri J. R. Kapoor: I am trying to prove what is the motive behind the Bill. Whether there is any propriety or necessity...... Shri Ethirajulu Naidu (Mysore): Can an hon. Member attribute motive to the hon. Minister that he has been moved by extraneous considerations other than the subject matter of the Bill—that is what he said and was dilating upon—Madam you may consider whether personal motives can be attributed to any Member. Shri J. R. Kapoor : I would not dilate very much on it but I feel...... Shri Ethirajulu Naidu: Would you give a ruling on the point of order raised by me? Mr. Chairman: Order, order. The hon. Member wants a ruling on the subject. I would like to say that the hon. member’s attention has been drawn to that position. If only

436 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES he is given a few more minutes to make his statement, then other hon. Members may also make their statements. Shri J. R. Kapoor: Madam, I may not have used the word motive. I would ask what are the reasons behind the Bill ? The reasons are not the necessity or the propriety of it but the reason is that the Hon. Law Minister wants to make capital out of this Bill for election purposes... Mr. Chairman: Without dilating upon the motives behind this Bill I would beg of the hon. Member to speak on the merits of the Bill as it is. Shri J. R. Kapoor: I have already spoken on the merits or the absence of merits of this Bill. I could only speak of the demerits of this Bill. Sardar B. S. Man (Punjab): On a point of order, Madam, you have ruled that motives could not be discussed. May I ask whether motives, intentions or merits can be divested from each other? Mr. Chairman: The ruling will be that only motives need not be always dilated upon. Sardar B. S. Man : It depends upon the emphasis that one wishes to make. Mr. Chairman: It is a matter of opinion. Shri J. R. Kapoor: If you wish me not to rub the point too much I will not rub it any further. Dr. Ambedkar: You can do it: I have borne all this for 25 years. Shri J. R. Kapoor: I think the Hon. Law Minister is bold enough, audacious enough and he can go even to the length of condemning his colleagues in the Government: he has that boldness and audacity. I would very much like to know whether it is in the propriety of things that one Cabinet Minister should outside the House condemn other Cabinet Ministers. ( An Hon. Member: All irrelevant) I should think it is not irrelevant. Sitting in the Parliament we are anxious to see that democracy is properly worked and on every

437PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES occasion hon. Members in this House must be on the watch to see that nothing which is contrary to democratic principles of Government is allowed to go on and I do submit, Madam, that at the earliest opportunity we should express ourselves that we are very apprehensive of this sort of thing going on between one Cabinet Minister and his other colleagues. In conclusion I would only submit that every Member of this House is as much interested as and perhaps more interested than the Hon. Law Minister in protecting and safeguarding the rights and privileges of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. They are absolutely equal to us and I would even say they are flesh of our flesh and bone of our bone. We want to treat them absolutely on an equal footing and I would even be prepared to give them more privileges that they may be entitled to not on the basis of their population alone and I would not grudge to give them any amount of representation. But my submission is that there was no necessity for this Bill to be brought before us for reasons which I have already submitted. I have done. Shri Raj Bahadur (Rajasthan): Why should the hon. Member be so upset? it is only his first election speech. Shri Chandrika Ram (Bihar): I was very sorry to hear the speech of my hon. friend Mr. Kapoor regarding the Scheduled Castes. The Scheduled Castes have been neglected, no doubt, throughout the length and breadth of the country for the last so many centuries, but since the Government of India many years back took over the responsibility for the Centrally Administered Areas, the conditions which were very bad indeed there were made deplorable. Whereas in the other States—Part A and Part B States as they are called in the Constitution—they have got legislatures and other elected bodies, in the Centrally Administered Areas there are local advisory councils presided over by the Chief Commissioner who never cared for anybody. In the Constituent Assembly we moved an amendment for the inclusion of Chief Commissioners also in article 341 which says : “The President may, after consultation with the Governor or Rajpramukh of a State, by public notification specify the castes, races

438 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES or tribes or parts of or groups within castes, races or tribes which shall for the purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Castes in relation to that State.” At that time the learned Law Minister said that as these Part C States are governed by the President himself according to article 239 of the Legislative Constitution, there is no need for the inclusion of Chief Commissioners in article 341. The entire difficulty arose that way and the need for the introduction of this Bill today is that in that article Chief Commissioners are not included and the President could not consult anybody for purposes of issuing notifications for Part C States. Shri J. R. Kapoor: What I said was that under article 392 the President could make the necessary adaptation and additions in article 341, under which the Scheduled Castes could be specified even in respect of Part C States. Shri Chandrika Ram : But the difficulty is this. If you read clause (2) of article 341 you will find it reads : “(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Castes specified in a notification issued under clause (1) any caste, race or tribe or part of, or group within any caste, race or tribe, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification.” Therefore, under this article the President is not in a position to issue another notification. Only Parliament is competent to do it. Shri J. R. Kapoor: The question of another notification does not arise because the President has not so far issued any notification for any Part C States. Shri Chandrika Ram: This matter was also raised with the Law Ministry, the Home Ministry and the States Ministry. We, who represent the Scheduled Castes in this House ran from one Ministry to another and consulted one Minister after another. Every one of them said that as there was no constitutional provision, notifications could not be issued regarding Part C States. When the original Bill was moved here, I moved an amendment in this House but it was not accepted on that very ground. The different organisations