Vol. 15 · pages 481–485

464 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Chair, he gave us a ruling that references regarding the speech of Dr. Ambedker need not be made here in extenso except by way of a few preliminary remarks. Therefore, I would request the hon. Member to speak on the merits of the Bill. Shri Deshbandhu Gupta: I have practically made no reference to that. I was only trying to make out that even without the proposed reservation of a seat Delhi would have returned a Harijan candidate. My hon. friend has made an unfortunate speech at a time when this Bill was coming before Parliament but I have purposely avoided making reference to it. I only wish to tell him that coming as he does from Bombay very probably he does not know the conditions prevailing in Delhi. All that he has done is that he has tried to treat the entire population of Delhi as Harijans. That is the contribution that he has made to the Constitutional advancement of Delhi. On that my friend can certainly congratulate himself, as that is one way of equalising. Instead of raising the status of Harijans he has tried to lower the status of non-Harijans and brought them both on the same political level. I want him to realise that in 1921 and even earlier in Delhi, the foreign Government, of which he is so much enamoured today, was using and exploiting the Harijans against the best interests of the country. A big all-India depressed classes conference was held in September 1921 in the People’s Park to mobilise support to welcome the Prince of Wales in those days, when the whole country was against it. In spite of this attitude of the depressed classes leaders the movement for the uplift of Harijans which was started by the late Swami Shraddhanand continued as they felt that the removal of disabilities of the Harijans was a matter of duty with them and not a question of doing any favour to the Harijans. Swami Shraddhanand in Delhi was attacked by the supporters of the old British Government—in which camp most of the people who were following the lead of my hon. friend were then—while he was leading a procession to have temples and use of wells thrown opened to Harijans. All that is part of history and should not be forgotten. Therefore, I would have thought a privilege, if at least Delhi had been left out of this Bill and given an opportunity to return Harijan without there being any

465PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES reservation. That would have also proved that after ten years there would be no difficulty in returning Harijan Candidates when there will be no reservations. With these words I support the Bill. I assure my hon. friend, whether this Bill is there or not, that Harijans in Delhi enjoy an equal status. Most of the disabilities about which he has been complaining may be in existence in his part of the country. So far as these areas are concerned there is no political motive behind the social work done by social reformers like Swami Shradhanand, and late Lala Lajpat Rai and other Aryasamaj leaders. They had dedicated their lives to it and this fact should be recognised while passing this Bill. Shri Dwivedi: (English translation of the Hindi speech ). So far as the principles of this Bill are concerned. I support it because for more than once I have made suggestions in this House to provide for the representation in Part C States of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. What I wish to say is that so far as the administration and development of Part C states are concerned, that issue should have been brought in this House even before this Bill was moved. But not realising the significance of that Bill, the Government hurriedly brought forth the present Bill. That goes to show that the Government are not so much keen about the representation of the people and the introduction of necessary reforms for establishing a democratic type of Government, as about this Bill. Anyway, I would support the present measure; but, all the same. I would like to explain a couple of things to the House. In the first place, I would like to say, as the previous speaker Shri Deshbandhu Gupta said in regard to Delhi, that we would have elected Harijan representatives even without this Bill. Then alone could it have been said how generously we treated the Harijans. In Vindhya Pradesh the Congress and the public workers have been treating the Harijans and the caste Hindus alike, and, as Shri Deshbandhu Gupta said, in Delhi they had already got opportunities of representation. In view of the fact that in Vindhya Pradesh untouchability has long been removed from the schools as also in the day-to-day intercourse and that Harijans there are loved by all alike and get due representation, there is no

466 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES reason why a separate legislation should now be enacted for them. Now that such a Bill has come before us, I welcome it, but, all the same, I wish to mention a couple of things in this connection. Firstly, out of the six seats in the House of the People allotted to Vindhya Pradesh, one third have been reserved for the untouchables—Scheduled Tribes and Scheduled Castes. But unfortunately the people of Vindhya Pradesh are so illiterate and backward that only a limited number of such persons will be available as may be able to discharge their duties and represent their people properly in Parliament. Such is not the case with the Harijans alone; even Caste Hindus suffer from illiteracy. Shri Thakkar Bapa had once remarked that mass literacy should have preceded adult franchise. We did never raise any question in regard to education. While in Delhi new schools have been opened and arrangements made for their education and educational facilities extended to rural areas too, but no steps have been taken in this regard in Vindhya Pradesh. One of the speakers who spoke before me, Shri Sonavane, strongly supported this Bill. I also agree with him. May I ask whether in his speech he at all referred to the absence of any arrangements for the education of the people of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes? Today they are devoid of even the prime necessities and comforts of the modern life. In places like Kherua, a poor labourer is paid at the rate of only four annas per day, while contractors get contracts at nearly double the rate. The better course, therefore would have been that the hon. Members, who are supporters of the cause of Harijans should have personally visited those places, taken some positive steps to improve their conditions and approached the Education Department of the Government for providing them with educational facilities. As a matter of fact they are only keen about their own interests— that they should be elected here as their representatives—and do not care for the interest of the Harijans. Unless they do some material work for the uplift of the Harijans, I would not approve of mere idle talk as it can do no good to the country. We should promote education among our brethren—the people of the Scheduled Castes—whom we consider to be our own, so that after being elected to Parliament they may be

467PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES able to discharge their duties properly; otherwise, there is no use in electing them. Mr. Chairman: Does the hon. Member propose to take a long time? Shri Dwivedi : Yes Sir. The House then adjourned for Lunch till Half Past Two of the Clock. The House re-assembled after Lunch at Half Past Two of the Clock. [PANDIT THAKUR DAS BHARGAVA in the Chair ] Shri Dwivedi: Sir, you might have heard whatever few observations I made before the House. What I particularly mean to say is that the Government have classified the States into various Parts in the manner in which the entire society has been broken up into many categories, viz., Savarna, Avarna, Scheduled Caste, Scheduled Tribe and so on. Shri Amolakh Chand (Uttar Pradesh): The Hon. Minister is not here. Mr. Chairman: He will come soon. An Hon. Member: Let somebody deputise for him. Mr. Chairman: He will be coming in a minute or so. Let the hon. member proceed. Shri Dwivedi : What I was going to say is that States too have been classified into various parts in the manner in which people have been divided into Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes etc. I want to ask the Hon. Minister why does he not contemplate to bring a legislation in respect of the various Parts referred to in the present Bill in the manner in which he has presented the Bill regarding the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. Shri Sivan Pillay (Travancore-Cochin): On a point of order, Sir. The treasury Benches are vacant. Mr. Chairman... The Hon. Minister is likely to come very soon.

468 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Shri Dwivedi: I think I can continue. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Shri Goenka (Madras): Who will listen? Shri Dwivedi: I suppose what I say will be noted in the proceedings. As for example cerain portions of Vindhya Pradesh have been merged into other States as enclaves. Rampur, Tehri Garhwal and certain other States have been given due protection in the Legislative Assemblies of the States concerned as also in Parliament, but no attention has so far been paid to those enclaves of Vindhya Pradesh which have been referred to in this Bill. Shri Goenka: They have been complaining that there is no one on the Treasury Benches. Dr. Ambedkar: The Treasury Bench is quite unnecessary for the House. Shri Dwivedi: Since a legislation has already been brought forth for the Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes etc., it should have been our first concern not to treat those merged enclaves like some packages that can be placed according to ones wishes. These enclaves should also get due representation in the States Legislative Assemblies. Now, Sir, I wish to divert your attention to a very important legal issue. In clause 2 of Article 330 of the Constitution, it is stated: “(2) The number of seats reserved in any State for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes under clause (1) shall bear, as nearly as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats allotted to that State in the House of the People as the population of the Scheduled Castes in the State or of the Scheduled Tribes in the State or Part of the State, as the Case may be, in respect of which seats are so reserved, bears to the total population of the State.” What I want to say in this connection is that since there has been a clear mention regarding the allotment of seats, including those of Part C States, in the Act XLIII of 1950 and since clause 2 of article 330 of the Constitution clearly states that the seats will be allotted in proportion to the population,