Vol. 15 · pages 781–785

762 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Are there other powers given to them now ? Dr. Ambedkar: They will be the Notaries Public who will be doing the work of the Notaries Public outside even the Negotiable Instruments Act. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Under this Bill. But at present they perform their duties only under the Negotiable Instruments Act. From a perusal of this Bill, I find that as a matter of fact a totally new institution is sought to be brought about in India now. The history of this institution is very interesting; it arose out of an ancient English statue—I did not know all this history... Dr. Ambedkar: It is I that gave that history. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: There is a reference to the Archbishop and then the Master of Faculties in England but all this is Jargon to us and we do not understand it. What I understand is this. Today in the whole of India the lawyers execute instruments—a sale deed, a mortgage deed, a gift deed—and all this is done either by petition—writers or by lawyers. I can speak with authority so far as Punjab is concerned and there every lawyer is competent to write out a deed. Where petition-writers are there, they do this business and lawyers generally do not do it. By law they are authorized to do it. So far as the Oath Commissioners are concerned, they attest documents which are produced in courts. There are certain provisions in the Civil Procedure Code according to which affidavits have got to be attested and they are to be produced in courts. Besides this, there are many other things which have got to be attested by these Oath Commissioners and whenever a person wants to create an alibi in a criminal case, then also the certificates of these Oath Commissioners are utilized for the purpose of getting a document or two attested on a particular date. Dr. Ambedkar: I did not know that sort of thing happened in the Punjab.

763PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava : If my hon. friend made an inquiry about the rest of India, he will be disillusioned to find that Punjab is not an exception. I do not know what will be the fate of those legal practitioners who are appointed Notaries Public. Will they be allowed to practise also ? Shri Sidhva: They are now practising. Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, they do. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: If the kind of work envisaged in the Bill is to be put on them I think the Notary Public should keep a regular office. Dr. Ambedkar: They have; each Notary Public has an office. *Mr. Chairman: May I suggest, if you look at sub-clause (2) of clause 8, it is provided that no act specified in subsection (1) shall be deemed to be a notarial act except when it is done by a Notary under his signature and official seal. I think that would go a long way to see that this has evidentiary value of the highest order. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: It means that so far as his seal and signature are concerned, they give some evidentiary value to the documents prepared. But, if you look into this Bill, there is no prohibition in the matter of appointment of Notary Public by the Government. Twenty people may be appointed in one district. They can appoint any number. This is just like the honorary magistrates affair. Shri Sidhva: No ; not like that. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: You are speaking with experience ; I am speaking without experience. I really want to know. Dr. Ambedkar: You are expressing the fear of the unknown. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava : That is perfectly right. I do not want that an institution like this which is sought to be established in the whole of India should be accepted *P. D. Vol. 14, Part II, 17th August 1951, pp. 840-41

764 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES by us without knowing what it is. I therefore humbly request Dr. Ambedkar to explain these things in the Select Committee. Dr. Ambedkar: I could explain these things in the House itself. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: He wants to bring in a new institution which is foreign to this land, which we had not got for all these years. Shri Sidhva: It is not a new thing; it is existing in the port towns. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: That is for negotiable instruments. Dr. Ambedkar says so and I accept his versions as better than yours. Shri Sidhva: Notary Public exists today. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: I have myself submitted that in Madras, Bombay and Calcutta and in some other places they do exist. Dr. Ambedkar : Wherever there is the Negotiable Instruments Act in force, the Notary Public is there. The Negotiable Instruments Act applies throughout the whole of India, except, I suppose in some Part B States. In the Part A and Part C States, the Negotiable Instruments Act is in force. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: As regards the Negotiable Instruments Act, I have no quarrel. I know it applies to the whole of India. But, we do not know how this measure will affect the public. There was the system of honorary magistrates or some other persons who used to do some work all over the land. Here you want to do something covering the whole of the country, something which is quite new. So far as patronage is concerned, the appointing authority will be the State Governments and the Central Government, and so it is there. And then, some qualifications have been prescribed. But we do not know how these offices will work. They will execute documents. But will they keep copies of the documents ? Unless and until you make provisions for keeping copies, the fears which I have given expression to now will all arise. It is not as if I want to raise any bogey. The fear is quite real. And I am sure lawyers all over the land will not like this measure.

765PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES Dr. Ambedkar: Why not ? This will afford them a supplementary occupation. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Now every lawyer is competent to execute documents and people go to them for executing these documents. But, if you make these Notaries execute the documents, then you take away that much of jurisdiction from the lawyers. This is not a small matter which should be looked at from only the lawyers point of view, what happens to the general public ? A person requiring a document to be executed will have to come to a big city and suppose the Notary charges a high fee, he will have to pay it. This here is a new tiling you are introducing. At least let us know the full implication of it. To bring in such a measure now and get it rushed through is not fair to us. If I understand it and am convinced that it is for the good of the people, then I will certainly support it. But till then, unless I am convinced, I will not touch it with a pair of tongs even. Let us first of all know whether it will be useful to the public or not. From the speech of the hon. Member I could not gather much. Mr. Chairman : Will the hon. Member kindly resume his seat ? It is now 6-45 p.m. and further discussion on this motion will follow tomorrow. *Mr. Deputy Speaker : Now we proceed with the further consideration of the following motion moved by Dr. Ambedkar, on the 9th August, 1951: “That the Bill to regulate the profession of notaries, be taken into consideration.” Pandit Thakur Das Bargava (Punjab): I was submitting to the House yesterday various reasons why this Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee. It is a well-known fact that in some courts and big cities ...... The Minister of Law (Dr. Ambedkar): May I make a statement with a view to economise the time of the House ? *P. D., Vol. 14, Part II, 18th August 1951, pp. 853-55.

766 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES My Friend Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava and I believe Dr. Deshmukh want to refer this Bill to a Select Committee. So far as what my friend Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava said yesterday is concerned. I was not inclined to accept his suggestion, because I did not think that he had advanced any grounds of any substance. But in so far as he pleaded that this is rather a strange measure so far as he is concerned and he might like to have more time to address himself to the examination of the provisions here, to understand the motives behind it, and so on. Out of pure compassion, I am prepared to accept his suggestion. Dr. Deshmukh (Madhya Pradesh): Why not accept the motion for reference to the Select Committee ? Dr. Ambedkar: I want to save the time of the House. I am quite prepared to explain the provisions of the Bill if that would satisfy him and he would withdraw his motion. But I think that would be waste of time, because he will persist. I am prepared to accept the motion for reference to the Select Committee. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Whatever the reasons be, the Hon. Minister is willing to accept the motion to the Select Committee. So I think not much of debate need go on now. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: So far as this qsuestion of compassion is concerned ......... Mr. Deputy Speaker: No question of compassion.. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Then is it passion ? I would only submit that the reasons advanced were so cogent that they moved even Dr. Ambedkar to accept the motion for reference to the Select Committee. I have as much regard for the value of the time of the House as anyone else; but I may point out that in this want of knowledge about this matter, I am not alone. There are many who want to get more knowledge about this subject. Dr. Ambedkar: There is no catch in it. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: There may be no catch ; but at the same time, we must be satisfied that as a matter