Vol. 17, Part III · pages 356–360

327I WAS..................INDIA in political knowledge and having regard to the fact that he was not present at the first R.T.C. I was thirsting to get the first chance to speak so that I could expose the whole business and let Mr. Gandhi know what the situation was. Dr. Ambedkar narrated here how he spoke to the Lord Chancellor of his little temperature and managed to be allowed by the Lord Chancellor to speak first. The Lord Chancellor asked Mr. Gandhi “if he has any objection”, Mr. Gandhi for generosity’s sake said ‘no’. I spoke for about an hour and a half, and it was probably one of the largest speeches that I had made in that country. After having made the speech and having tendered false excuse, I had to keep appearances and walked out of the Conference. I was the only man sitting in the whole of London waiting for the approach of evening in order to find out what Mr. Gandhi has spoken. Precisely at midnight, a report of the proceedings of the Conference reached my door. On opening the packet delivered to me by the postman I found the very first sentence of Mr. Gandhi’s speech “My heart is with Dr. Ambedkar but my head is not with him.” “Everything that I had suggested in my speech he counteracted. I was very furious and I really had temperature although in the morning I had none (Cries of shame shame). The next morning I went to the Conference. Mr. Gandhi and others were there. As the proceedings were open, I intervened and told the Lord Chancellor that before the proceedings commenced, I might be permitted to ask Mr. Gandhi certain questions. That is the cause of quarrel between myself and Mr. Gandhi. I asked Mr. Gandhi three questions. One of them was whether he had received any mandate from the Congress in support of this statements that he would welcome the representation of the Indian Princes by nomination and whether the matter was ever discussed by the Congress, whether the Congress had passed any resolutions and whether he was authorised to do anything. The other question asked him was related to the indirect elections : The Conservative Party was keen on having indirect elections to which we were all opposed. Mr. Gandhi had agreed in his speech that he saw no objection to indirect election. I asked Mr. Gandhi whether it was not a fact that this principle of indirect election was brought out in the Home Rule Bill prepared by Mrs. Annie Besant

328 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES and which was for that very reason-rejected by the Congress. The other question I forget at this distance of time. The Lord Chancellor turning to Mr. Gandhi asked him what answer he had to give. Mr. Gandhi refused to give any answer. If the past has been sold, if India has been let down, it is not by me, it is not by Scheduled Castes, it is let down by Mr. Gandhi, Mr. Shastri and others. Parallel from Ireland Proceeding of the situation in Ireland and how a last effort was made in 1916 towards uniting of the country, referring to the conversation between Mr. Redmond representing the Southern Irish Catholics and Sir Edward Carson, the Irish Leader, and the reply that Carson gave to Redmond when the latter asked the former to ask for any safeguards he liked : “Damn your safeguards. I do not want to be ruled by you. “I would like to tell the Hindu brethren that we in India have a thousand excuses to adopt the attitude of Mr. Carson. We were in justice bound to tell the Hindus, “Damn your safeguards, we do not want your rule” Did we say so ? Have we said it either ? No, we have not said it, although we have every right and every justification to say so. We have played our part in much more humbler manner. We have said, “if you want Home Rule which as the President of Hindu MahaSabha said would be nothing more than Home Rule.” Still we are large hearted enough because, we realise the interest of the country as a whole. We have said if you want Home Rule, you have it; we will support you. There is only one small condition that we maintain and that conditions is : give us reasonable safeguards. That is an attitude which is much more nobler than the one adopted by Carson. I would like to ask Mr. Shastri, Mr. Gandhi or any Congress politician whether this attitude is not patriotic, whether it is not noble-minded, or whether it is not generous. How much we are forgetting the Brahmanical rule under which we have been suffering for the last 2,000 years in the hope that if we are given safeguards, we may with the help of the other generous elements in the country be able to build up a system in which not only this

329I WAS..................INDIA country will grow to its fullest manhood and nationhood. Can you expect greater generosity, greater and nobler spirit than the one we exhibited in all this political controversy. I therefore would like to tell our Hindu brethren that they should better revise their mentality and take into account the sacrifices we are prepared to make, the risks we are prepared to take. Let us come to terms and settle this question. I am quite willing, and prepared to agree. But unfortunately, I have not found adequate response from the Hindu Community. They had been poohpoohing every time we raised our heads. I recalled how in 1932 when the question of the Scheduled Castes first came under the surface and was placed on the same plane as that of the Muslims and whenever the Franchise Committee went in order to investigate and ascertain the total number of Scheduled Castes people in the different Provinces, I found that all Hindus liberal, narrow minded, broad minded Hindu, all joining together in one conspiracy to tell the Committee that there was no such a thing as Depressed or Scheduled Classes in our country, (shame, shame). It was the same story in U.P., Bihar, Punjab and other places. Why ? The answer is very simple. Our Hindu brethren had come to realise that His Majesty’s Government had decided to give separate representation to the Scheduled Classes in the Legislature and that the amount of representation would depend upon the Scheduled Castes, and as they could not defeat the project of His Majesty’s Government, these subterranean methods were employed to defeat this project by saying that there were no Scheduled Castes at all. That was the sort of strategy, a mean strategy that was employed by the Hindus in 1932. Today I find the Hindus are employing another sort of strategy. Gandhi-Wavell Correspondence I drew the attention of the gathering to the GandhiWavell Correspondence particularising the one letter, dated 15th July 1944, which I said was very important and critical. The Viceroy in the letter had stated that while His Majesty’s Government was prepared to grant India freedom at the end of the war. His Majesty’s Government insist upon one thing viz. that the constitution shall come into existence which will have the consent of what you call

330 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES the important elements in the national life of India. The Viceroy also went further and particularised what important elements were there. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for our Hindu brethren I mentioned the Scheduled Classes as an important element in the National Life of India (cheers). Separate Representation for Scheduled Castes I also referred to the controversy in some sections of the Press that this statement of the Viceroy was new and that it was a departure from the proposals which were put forward on behalf of His Majesty’s Government by Sir Strafford Cripps. That is the thing which annoyed me and I could not understand the false and malicious propaganda. I looked to the Hindu Newspapermen and Editors at last to keep themselves thoroughly informed of what they were talking about, know the fact and then launch upon any criticism they liked to make I need not say how strongly the Simon Commission emphasised the need for giving separate representation to the Scheduled Castes. Could anybody say that the Scheduled Castes were not a separate and an important element ? What made His Majesty’s Government give them separate representation at the R.T.C. They had not been a sub-head, or a branch, or a sub-community of the Hindus. Why should His Majesty’s Government give them separate representation ? They were given separate representation because they (His Majesty’s Government) recognised the fact that they were a separate element. Then there was the J.P.C. Report. It is all old history. There has been a great deal after. I would like to tell our Hindu brethren that it is much better that they drop this idea, and reconcile themselves to the fact that for good or bad, the Scheduled Castes are a separate element in the National life of India. I like to tell them in categorical terms and in a precise manner, make no mistake about it. Jinnah-Gandhi Talks I have nothing else to say on the main problem. People have been asking me, why don’t you say something about the talks that

331I WAS..................INDIA are going on between Mr. Jinnah and Mr. Gandhi. I really do not know that anybody can say something about these talks. The talks are so prolonged that one is in a very difficult position to speculate what is going on between these two old and amiable gentlemen, or whether there is life in the talks. But, I would like to say one thing. I do not take these conversations and I will give you some reasons. The communal problem was not mostly a problem between the Hindus and the Muslims. The communal problem was a wider problem. It was a problem where not only Muslims but also Christians, Scheduled Classes and probably other minorities were involved. Consequently in a matter of such nature, the wisest, safest and the most honest course would be for all representatives of the different minorities to sit together, place their cards on the table, let each one know what the other one is asking and let all of them get in common consultation with just regards to their rights of others and give a decision which might be upheld by all. These sectional settlement and arrangements have a bad smell and a bad odour. They appear to me as deals between the two men who have decided to rob the third man and better their position. I do not know what Mr. Jinnah is demanding from Mr. Gandhi. I do not know what Mr. Gandhi is inclined to give to Mr. Jinnah. But I am very much purturbed that if Mr. Gandhi gives Mr. Jinnah something more than Mr. Jinnah is entitled to, that something more is going to someone out of my share. You can, therefore, well understand why I am so very concerned about their talks. It is the most important policy of Mr. Gandhi somehow to acquire strength for the Congress by getting the help of the largest party in this country and to intimidate the British Government and to force it to come to terms without being obliged to grant the demand of the Scheduled Castes. Mr. Gandhi in all his public career ever since the communal problem has loomed large has done only one thing and that is to neglect the Scheduled Castes (cries of Shame, Shame) to by-pass them and to leave them where they are. In this connection I referred to my unpleasent experience of Mr. Gandhi’s tactics in this matter. At the R. T. C. Mr. Gandhi tried to isolate me. I am not going to use the language of Hitler that he was encircling me (Laughter) which was a better word. Although he did isolate me