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580 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES community in India should be allowed to monopolise any services in the country. I say it is a great public danger, because it not only excites a sense of superiority in these particular communities which have been placed in the position of advantage, but it also jeopardises the welfare of the people by making them dependent upon the protection afforded to them by certain specific communities, I therefore submit that as we are enunciating a new constitution for India, we ought to begin with a system which will permit every member of His Majesty’s community to play such part as he is capable of by reason of his fitness in any Public Service of the country. And, if I may say so, Sir, the amendment which I am moving is only a logical consequence of the principle enunciated in this paragraph itself, because if you refer to sub-clause 1 of clause 4 you will see this: “The Sub-Committee consider that with the Government of the new political structure in India, the defence of India must to an increasing extent be the concern of the Indian people, and not of the British Government” Now Sir, if that sentence has any meaning, that the defence of India should be to an increasing extent the concern of all the Indian people, it must be the concern of Indian people and not the concern of any particular community. I therefore submit that this House do accept the amendment which I am proposing. Dr. Moonje: With regard to Dr. Ambedkar’s proposal that recruitment should be thrown open to all classes, I entirely agree with him provided the standard of efficiency is maintained. Dr. Ambedkar: That is my amendment; I say that it shall be consistent with efficiency. Sir Tejbahadur Sapru: I also associate myself with Dr. Ambedkar. Mr. Basu: Mr. Chairman, I raise a point of order. This amendment overlaps a portion of the Department of the Services Committee which says, in clause 5(4) regarding membership of any Committee that castes, creed or race shall not be a ground for promotion or supersession in any public services. Dr. Ambedkar: We excluded the Army for our consideration. Mr. Thomas : Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is any need for the amendment. The paragraph was deliberately put in. “The Sub-Committee consider that with the development of the new political structure in India, the defence of India must to an increasing extent be the concern of the Indian people and not of the British Government alone.” That does not say that the defence of India must be the special concern of any section in India. It was deliberately framed to cover that, and the word “Indianisation” is applicable. Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, but I mean there may be Indianisation without there being the opportunity of men to all communities to enter Public Service. Indianisation may still mean the monopoly of some communities. Chairman : The position is that, it will be noted.

7 IN SUB-COMMITTEE No. VIII (SERVICES) Second Sitting—7th January 1931 *Dr. Ambedkar: There is one thing which it seems to me necessary that this Sub-Committee should consider, whether this process of Indianisation should not be accompanied by some distinction in the matter of pay, pensions and other privileges of Indians as against Europeans in the Civil Service of the future. I think that is a point which this Sub-Committee must necessarily consider. I should therefore like to add to this paragraph “Should the Indian element be on a par with the European element in the matter of pay, pensions and other privileges”. Chairman: We will bear that in mind. Then “(4) Who should be the recruiting authority for the recruitment of All-India Services under the new Constitution ?” Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: You will have to add there the question of control, who shall recruit and who shall control. Chairman: We will leave that for the moment. Then “(5) Recommendations concerning the Civil Branch of the Indian Medical Service”. That is quite at large. We can make what recommendations we like there. Then “(6) The desirability of recommending that the question as to what conditions may be required to attract and retain future recruits of the right type should be referred to a technical Committee or Committees”. It occurred to me that there are so many of these points, for instance, with regard to rates of pay, which we have to consider. You do not want to pay more than you need; on the other hand it is bad economy to pay people inadequate salaries when you do not get the right type of man. That is obvious The point made as to the question of control seems to me to involve highly technical matters, calling for expert knowledge, so that I doubt whether this Sub-Committee is qualified to express any final opinion — I know I am not. I therefore purposely drafted item (6) of the agenda so that we might *Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), Government of India, Central Publication Branch, Calcutta, 1931, pp. 44-46. (Terms of reference to this Committee were : “the relation of services to the new political structure”, which meant to include the ratio of British recruitment in the All-India Services.)

582 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES consider whether we ought not to say that there should be Commissions set up to determine this question. Can any of you say — I cannot — what rate of pay is necessary to attract the right type of people ? Is anybody prepared to say that he knows ? Or can anybody formulate what precise regulations should be made regarding control, if we are to cope with that topic ? Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: I think the broad principle with regard to control should be dealt with here, namely, whether it should rest with the Secretary of State as at present or devolve upon the Government of India. Dr. Ambedkar: The distinction of remuneration as between Europeans and Indians is a broad question which this Sub-Committee ought to decide. The particular principle whether the two elements in the Service should be treated on a par is certainly one for this Sub-Committee. Sir Provash Chunder Mitter: If you want to have an All-India Service it is necessary to remember that conditions in the provinces are not the same. Unless you take evidence I cannot see how even broad generalisations can be made on the question of attracting the best men for the Services throughout India. Sir A. P. Patro: We had a Committee to investigate whether there should be any retrenchment in the Services. It was a very independent Committee, but the result at which it arrived was that the rates of salaries should actually be increased in some respects. I think that this question should be considered by an independent Committee. Some of us, while strongly in favour of Indianisation, feel that in the interests of our own country there should be greater economy in the matter of the salaries of the Indian officers, but at the same time there should be sufficient attraction to such officers, enabling them to maintain their position and prestige in the country, and preserving them from temptation. As to what scale is adequate to keep the best men in the Service, this is not a matter which can be determined offhand, it is one which will require very careful consideration. These are vital questions affecting the efficiency of the Service. My respectful submission is that we should not burden ourselves with details at present Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: With regard to control, I am afraid my remark was not quite understood. I only want to have the large principle settled, whether the control should be in Whitehall or in India. Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to draw your attention to the report of the Ceylon Commission, which recommended the broad principle that there should be differentiation of salaries between the native of Ceylon and others. Chairman: It may meet the point if we had at the end of Item (6) of the agenda, “and if so, whether any definite recommendation should be made for the guidance of such Committees”. Lord Zetland: The question which Sir Chimanlal Setalvad wishes to discuss will come up on Item (4). The control goes with the recruiting authority. Chairman: We can add to Item (4) “and what general recommendations should be made as to control”. I agree with Lord Zetland that the one is

583IN SUB-COMMITTEE NO. VIII a corollary of the other. The control goes with the recruiting authority. Will you, therefore, add to Item (6), in order to meet Dr. Ambedkar’s point, “and is so, whether any definite recommendations should be made for the guidance of such Committees” ? ***** †Chairman: We come now to Item (3) : “Should recruitment on an All-India basis continue for any of the following Services : ( a) Indian Civil Service, (b) Indian Police Service, ( c) Indian Forest Service, ( d) Irrigation Branch of the Indian Service of Engineers.” I pause here, and suggest that I rather gather the sense of the Committee to be “Yes” to ( a), “Yes” to (b). and “No” to (c). May I take it that the answer is “Yes” to ( a) and (b) ? Mr. Shiva Rao: I think that all these Services should be provincialised. I do not think it would be satisfactory to work these Services on an AllIndia basis, and at the same time ensure a proper relationship between the Services and the Ministry. Mr. Basu: The Indian Civil Service is a general service that is recruited, and there are bifurcations and trifurcations. After a period in the general service, some members, for example, go to Customs, some take the Judicial line and become Judges, and others remain in the Executive and Revenue Departments. Are we going to have a service which is not a specialised service, such as we ought to have from the very start ? It may be, as I pointed out in my general remarks, that with the new Constitution it will be necessary to recast the categories of services, instead of having one service, namely, the I.C.S. The I.C.S. has done good work in the past, but it is to some extent an anachronism, and may be more so within a short time. The question is whether by this kind of nomenclature we shall be tending to continue and perpetuate a state of things which does not fit in with the requirements of the present day. Dr. Ambedkar: This question has to be considered from more than one point of view. There is, first of all, the point of view of Provincial autonomy. We are framing a Constitution in which we propose to give as large a degree of Provincial autonomy to the provinces as possible, and it seems to me that no province can be deemed to have Provincial autonomy if it has not the right to regulate the Civil Service that is going to work in its area. There is another and very important point of view, namely, finance. When we have an All-India Civil Service we have a fixed scale of pay. Salaries, remunerations, and other privileges are on a scale which is somewhat remote from what would be obtainable in the various provinces. A Civil Service that will not be costly to Bombay or Bengal may be costly to smaller and poorer provinces, like Assam, Sind, the North-West Frontier Province, and Punjab, and it may be that these provinces will feel themselves satisfied with a little less efficient service than the All-India basis would give them. Having regard to finance at their command, they may regard the brains and efficiency obtainable as quite sufficient for their purpose. Finally, I agree with Mr. Basu †Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 54-58.

584 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES with regard to specialisation. I do not understand how the passing of an examination like that of the I.C.S. can give any man the competence to serve in certain specialised Department. A man was passed his I.C.S. examination, with mathematics as a special subject, may be placed in the Department of Agriculture or in that of Indian currency. We ought to have a Service which not merely assures a certain standard of education in those who participate, but also allow for a certain degree of specialisation. It is necessary, in my view, that the All-India character of some of these Services should now cease, and the Provinces should be allowed liberty to cut their coats according to their cloth. Sir A. P. Patro: The objection which has been raised by Dr. Ambedkar is a very relevant one. ***** †Chairman : Mr. Basu’s point of view on Dr. Ambedkar’s remarks should clearly be considered. We should be careful to make it plain that in recommending recruitment for the I.C.S. we do not regard the I.C.S. as perfect, good though it is, or as a thing which must be continued for ever on exactly the same basis. It will be necessary to do whatever is possible to remould and recast it. Those of Dr. Ambedkar’s school of thought suggest that the All-India Services should be done away with and small Provincial Services set up in their stead. Dr. Ambedkar: I think that I should make my position clear. I hold, with the rest of the members of this Committee, that it is very necessary to have a European element in the Service, but I do not share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Zetland, when he said that if you make the Service provincial it will dry up the source of recruitment. ***** ‡Chairman: The suggestion is that we snould fix 1939, or any other date you like. There is no magic in a date. The suggestion is that we should fix some date, and make it plain that thereafter it is a matter for the Government of India to consider. That is the suggestion which I make in order to try to meet everybody. Dr. Ambedkar: My view is that your recommendations should be applicable only to the Indian Civil Service and the Indian Police Service. Chairman: I would agree to that, and I will make that plain. Third Sitting—8th January 1931 §Dr. Ambedkar: Sir, I must say mat I do not hold a very strong opinion on the question as to whether there should be a Committee appointed or not, in order to give guidance to the future Government of India, but there are two matters upon which I do hold a very strong opinion. The first is that †Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 57-58. ‡Ibid., p. 85. §Ibid., pp. 91-93.