Vol. 2 · pages 611–615

590 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES †Chairman: At present I want to put before you what the suggestion is. Will you therefore please strike out the words “be placed under Provincial management”, and insert instead the words “no longer be recruited on an All-India basis” ? “and we do not think it necessary to make any special recommendation with regard to these two services. “ we recommend that recruitment on an All-India basis should continue for the Indian Civil Service and the Indian Police Service (Mr. Shiva Rao lissents—)” I do not know whether he is alone or whether there is anyone with him. Dr. Ambedkar: My resolution is that except for the European element in hese two Services, the rest should be provincialised. Chairman: I think that will have to be separately put in. “(Mr. Shiva Rao dissent from this conclusion, and would desire that all Services be provincialised forthwith).” I suggest that we add here this : “ some members are of opinion that recruitment for judicial offices should no longer be made from the Indian Civil Service.” **** * ‡Dr. Ambedkar: I am in favour of both the Services being on a Provincial basis, but I am prepared to make an exception in favour of the European element in those two Services. Mr. Zafrullah Khan: I agree with Dr. Ambedkar. Sardar Sampuran Singh: I endorse the same view. Chairman: I am much obliged. That will certainly go in. Dr. Ambedkar: On page 2, in the paragraph beginning “No doubt such government if it requires”, and so on, you have mentioned the question of the reorganisation and readjustment of the departments of Public Services, etc. May I know whether you will add also the question of the basis of salary, in view of the discussions that took place this morning ? Chairman: That comes within those words, I think. Fourth Sitting—9th January 1931 §Lord Zetland: No. You cannot withdraw the jurisdiction of the local Government, because the local Government admittedly must be supreme over its officers, but it could be laid down that that should be the practice which it is desirable to pursue. That, Sir, I think covers what I want to put before the Sub-Committee. The main point is to secure that the powers now vested in the Inspector-General by the Police Act of 1861 should be retained, and I put forward various other suggestions, such as the formation of a Police Council in a Province for the consideration of the Sub-Committee. †Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), p. 128. ‡Ibid., p. 132. ¶Indian Civil Service and Indian Police Service. §Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 181-82.

591IN SUB-COMMITTEE NO. VIII Dr. Ambedkar: I want to ask one question for information, if you will permit me to do so. Does the noble Marquess desire that the position of the Inspector-General should be recognised by statute, or does he want the position as it now is under the Police Act to be maintained ? Does he want them to be recognised by statute as officers having certain statutory rights and obligations ? Lord Zetland: Yes. Sir Provash Chunder Mitter: By Parliamentary statute ? Lord Zetland: That is right. The Inspector-General now has these powers by statute, namely the Police Act. Dr. Ambedkar: That is a different thing to the Police Act, which of course would be subject to amendment by the local Legislature. The question is whether you want the position of the Inspector-General to be recognised as that of an officer performing certain duties, and as an officer not liable to interference by the Minister or by the local Government ? Lord Zetland: That is the effect of it. That is my proposal. I think that the powers which are now vested in the Inspector-General should be retained. Sir Cowasji Jehangir: By what authority—by the Police Act or by the Government of India Act ? Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: It should be beyond the vote of the local Legislature or of any Legislature to alter the provisions of the Police Act. Lord Zetland: Yes. I think that it should be the Act of the Federal Government. Mr. Zafrullah Khan: That can be done by placing the Police Act in the list as one of the Acts which cannot be repealed, altered, or modified, by a Provincial Government without the consent of the Governor-General. Dr. Ambedkar: That would be the position today, because the Act can not be amended with the previous sanction of the Central Government. **** * †Mr. Zafrullah Khan : If I may add just this. Perhaps the members of this Committee are not all aware that both the Federal Structure Sub-Committee and the Joint Sub-Committee set up by Sub-Committees Nos. I and II have suggested quite a large number of enactments on comparatively unimportant subjects to be placed in that list under Section 80( 3)(h) and if we put the Police Act under that it will not contravene any principles whatever. Dr. Ambedkar: I am in general agreement with Mr. Zafrullah Khan. The reason why the Police Act is not placed in the Schedule today is that the subject is a reserved subject, therefore as a matter of fact the Government of India has a complete control over the Department of Law and Order; and when the Department of Law and Order comes to be transferred the position will be altogether different. I think it will be necessary to consider whether we should not at least for the transitional period, consider the necessity of certain safeguards at least for keeping such as they exist at the †Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 186-88.

592 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES present time. I personally am in favour of the suggestion that this Police Act should be included in the Schedule which requires today the previous sanction of the Governor-General or the Government of India. There is another point to which I should like to draw your attention with respect to the question of the Police and the Department of Law and Order a point which I raised also in the Provincial Constitution Sub-Committee. This question has been considered, of course, from the standpoint of the responsibility of the future Provincial Governments. It seems to me that this question has also to be considered from the standpoint of the different minorities in the Provinces and the emergency occasions which may arise on occasions of communal trouble and such other emergencies. It seems to me that it is indeed a great safeguard for the minorities in the different Provinces to know which officer belonging to what community is going to administer law and order in that particular locality when a communal riot has taken place. We are all aware that all Police Officers are accused of partiality and of showing favour to one community or the other. There may not be sufficient justification for that accusation ; but there may be cases when there may be abundant justification for the partiality of the officers operating law and order in those particular localities. It seems to me that it is very necessary in the interests of the protection of the minorities that the transfer and posting of Police Officers should not be, at least in times of emergency, in the hands of Ministers. It may be that a Minister who may have a communal majority in the Province may on any particular occasion shift a Police Officer who may not favour the particular community to which he belongs. Mr. Zafrullah Khan: Ordinarily the Inspector-General does it Dr. Ambedkar: I know that in the Bombay Presidency a great row was created on account of the transfer of Police Officers. I do not know whether it was done under the Inspector of Police or by the Officer in charge; but I think that is a great safeguard which it is necessary to provide for in the future Constitution of India. My specific proposal is this, that in cases of emergency, as a riot or communal trouble takes place, the Governor should have over-riding powers over the Minister in different localities with regard to the Police. Fifth Sitting—12th January 1931 *Chairman : Doctor Ambedkar, Mr. Zafrullah Khan, and Sardar Sampuran Singh are averse to further recruitment on an All-India basis for the Indian Civil Service, save in respect of the European element in that Service. Some members are of opinion that recruitment for Judicial Offices should no longer be made from the Indian Civil Service. Dr. Ambedkar: Also the Indian Police Service, Sir. Chairman: You want to put in, do you, “for the Indian Civil Service and †Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), p. 198.

593IN SUB-COMMITTEE NO. VIII the Indian Police Service” ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. Chairman: Does that apply to Mr. Zafrullah Khan ? Mr. Zafrullah Khan: Yes. Chairman: And to Sardar Sampuran Singh ? Sardar Sampuran Singh: That is right. Chairman: I am only purporting to record your views there, so I will put in the words “and for the Indian Police Service”. Sixth Sitting—13th January 1931 *Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to have a new paragraph inserted after subparagraph (4) to this effect : “The Sub-Committee desires that a generous policy be adopted in the matter of the employment of the depressed classes in the Public Service, and it particularly recommends that the recruitment of the Police and Military, from which they are now excluded, should be thrown open to them.”. Mr. Chintamani: Are they excluded by rule, or merely as a matter of practice ? Dr. Ambedkar: By rule. The Police Service Commission expressly lays it down that the depressed classes are ineligible. Mr. Chintamani: If there are rules excluding the depressed classes from employment in particular Departments, such as the Police or Military, they are not rules which hold good over the whole country. There may be such rules in some Provinces, but not in all. Dr. Ambedkar: If it is desired I would have my proposal end as follows: “and in particular recommends that they (the depressed classes) should not be excluded from any Department of the Public Service hereafter by reason of their untouchability”. Raja Narendra Nath: Surely clause (5)( a) covers that. Sir Cowasji Jehangir: The position is that this community has been excluded on account of the impracticability of employing them. It is no good going into details here and now. If we had a separate section of the Police for the depressed classes, there would still remain the difficulty of members of such classes doing the work of policemen amongst a population which resented it. How this great disadvantage is to be removed is not clear. I cannot express any opinion. What has been done has been done with the greatest reluctance, as I think Dr. Ambedkar will admit. But I see no objection in expressing what Dr. Ambedkar wishes us to do even though it be merely pious. I am afraid that we have expressed the same opinion on hundreds of occasions, and nothing has come out of it. Dr. Ambedkar knows very well what orders have been passed, and how they have proved to be impracticable. Nevertheless, I support the inclusion of such a para- *Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 231-33.

594 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES graph as he proposes. We take the risk and know it may not be a practical proposition, but as you have said on a previous occasion, we cannot always be logical when we are aiming at an ideal. Dr. Ambedkar: I am particularly anxious that the Police and the Military should be mentioned, because those are the Departments for which the members of the depressed classes would be most fit. Chairman: The point is covered by paragraph (5) ( a) and (b). Dr. Ambedkar: In that way the question of the Anglo-Indian community is also included. I propose a new clause to follow clause (4). “The Sub-Committee desires that a generous policy be adopted in the matter of the employment of the depressed classes: in the Public Services, and in particular recommends that the recruitment to the Police and Military Departments, from which they are now excluded, should be thrown open to them.” Raja Narendra Nath : I have a suggestion to make, namely, that we should add : “No person shall be under disability or shall be prejudiced in any way for admission to any Service of the country merely by religion, caste or sex.” I would have that as a special recommendation. Dr. Ambedkar: That will come later. Mr. Basu: I sympathise with Dr. Ambedkar’s desire to see the disabilities under which his community suffers removed, and if there is in any Province any disability laid down by administrative rules, those rules should be done away with. But the way in which he has put this statement makes it much too general. For instance, in my Province, a great many posts are filled by members of the depressed classes. This is not a matter which greatly concerns my Province. Dr. Ambedkar: I am prepared to insert some limiting words such as, “where they are at present excluded” Raja Narendra Nath: There is no rule debarring their employment in the Police, but in practice they are not employed. Once a question was raised by a Member of the Council asking the Government why these people were not recruited for the Police and whether the practice was not in contravention of Section 96 of the present Government of India Act; the reply was not satisfactory. I think the addition of the words which I have suggested will help, and that also the expression of a general desire and general recommendation will also help. But let me tell you that the expression of a general sentiment would not be so effective as the insertion of the words which I have suggested. Major Stanley: A specific reference to the Military Service is surely outside the scope of this Committee. Mr. Mody: We have recommended that the requirements of the Army should be borne in mind. Chairman: I suggest you would make it slightly less controversial if you said this, “And in particular recommend that the recruitment to all Services should be thrown open to them.” Mr. Mody: Yes, from which they are now excluded.