Vol. 2 · pages 691–695

670 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Sub-Committee, if it comes to consider the question this year, should have the requisite details before it. I. E XTENT OF SPECIAL REPRESENTATION A. Special Representation in Provincial Legislature (i) In Bengal, Central Provinces, Assam, Bihar and Orissa, Punjab and the United Provinces, the Depressed Classes shall have representation in proportion to their population as estimated by the Simon Commission and the Indian Central Committee. (ii) In Madras the Depressed Classes shall have twenty-two per cent. representation. (iii) In Bombay— (a) In the event of Sind continuing to be a part of the Bombay Presidency the Depressed Classes shall have sixteen per cent. representation. (b) In the event of Sind being separated from the Bombay Presidency the Depressed Classes shall enjoy the same degree of representation as the Presidency Muslims, both being equal in population. B. Special Representation in the Federal Legislature In both Houses of the Federal Legislature the Depressed Classes shall have representation in proportion of their population in India. RESERVATIONS We have fixed this proportion of representation in the Legislatures on the following assumptions : — (1) We have assumed that the figures for the population of the Depressed Classes given by the Simon Commission (Vol. I, p. 40) and the Indian Central Committee (Report, p. 44) will be acceptable as sufficiently correct to form a basis for distributing seats. (2) We have assumed that the Federal Legislature will comprise the whole of India, in which case the population of the Depressed Classes in Indian States, in Centrally Administered Areas, and in Excluded Territories, besides their population in Governor’s Provinces, will form very properly an additional item in calculating the extent of representation of the Depressed Classes in the Federal Legislature. (3) We have assumed that the administrative area of the Provinces of British India will continue to be what they are at present. But if these assumptions regarding figures of population are challenged as some interested parties threaten to do, and if under a new census over which the Depressed Classes can have no control, the population of the Depressed Classes shows a lower proportion, or if the administrative areas of the Provinces are altered, resulting in disturbing the existing balance of population, the Depressed Classes reserve their right to revise their proportion of representation and even to claim weightage. In the same way, if the

671IN THE MINORITIES COMMITTEE All-India Federation does not come into being, they will be willing to submit to readjustment in their proportion of representation calculated on that basis in the Federal Legislature. II. METHOD OF REPRESENTATION 1. The Depressed Classes shall have the right to elect their representatives to the Provincial and Central Legislatures through separate electorates of their voters. For their representation in the Upper House of the Federal or Central Legislature, if it is decided to have indirect election by members of the Provincial Legislatures, the Depressed Classes will agree to abandon their right to separate electorates so far as their representation to the Upper House is concerned subject to this : that in any system of proportional representation arrangement shall be made to guarantee to them their quota of seats. 2. Separate electorates for the Depressed Classes shall not be liable to be replaced by a system of joint electorates and reserved seats, except when the following conditions are fulfilled : — (a) A referendum of the voters held at the demand of a majority of their representatives in the Legislatures concerned and resulting in an absolute majority of the members of the Depressed Classes having the franchise. (b) No such referendum shall be resorted to until after twenty years and until universal adult suffrage has been established. III. N ECESSITY OF DEFINING THE DEPRESSED CLASSES The representation of the Depressed Classes has been grossly abused in the past inasmuch as persons other than the Depressed Classes were nominated to represent them in the Provincial Legislatures, and cases are not wanting in which persons not belonging to the Depressed Classes got themselves nominated as representative of the Depressed Classes. This abuse was due to the fact that while the Governor was given the power to nominate persons to represent the Depressed Classes, he was not required to confine his nomination to persons belonging to the Depressed Classes. Since nomination is to be substituted by election under the new constitution, there will be no room for this abuse. But in order to leave no loophole for defeating the purpose of their special representation we claim — (i) That the Depressed Classes shall not only have the right to their own separate electorates, but they shall also have the right to be represented by their own men. (ii) That in each Province the Depressed Classes shall be strictly defined as meaning persons belonging to communities which are subjected to the system of untouchability of the sort prevalent therein and which are enumerated by name in a schedule prepared for electoral purposes.

672 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES IV. NOMENCLATURE In dealing with this part of the question we would like to point out that the existing nomenclature of Depressed Classes is objected to by members of the Depressed Classes who have given thought to it and also by outsiders who take interest in them. It is degrading and contemptuous, and advantage may be taken of this occasion for drafting the new constitution to alter for official purposes the existing nomenclature. We think that they should be called “Non-caste Hindus”, “Protestant Hindus”, or “Non-conformist Hindus”, or some such designation, instead of “Depressed Classes”. We have no authority to press for any particular nomenclature. We can only suggest them, and we believe that if properly explained the Depressed Classes will not hesitate to accept the one most suitable for them. We have received a large number of telegrams from the Depressed Classes all over India supporting the demands contained in this Memorandum.

11 EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM Witnesses examined by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar (1) Sir Patrick James Fagan, K.C.I.E., C.S.I., F.R.A.S.. Mr. E. B. Loveluck, Mr. Wilfred Harold Shoobert, Mr. Eustace Arthur Cecil King, Mr. Henry Robert Harrop, Mr. Frederick Wynne Robertson, Sir Evans Cottan, Mr. Harold Lancelot Newman and Mr. Sale, on behalf of European Government Servants, Indian Police Association and Civil Engineers’ Association. *382. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : You stated a little while ago that there is a great deal of hostility shown to the Indian Public Service by the Indian Press and by the politicians in India ? Sir P. J. Fagan : Yes. *383. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I would like to read to you a small extract from the Minute written by Sir Reginald Craddock, which is appended to the Lee Commission Report, on page 132, paragraph 10, a few lines from the bottom. This is the paragraph to which I want to draw your attention : “Several of those who have given evidence before us believe that the hostility from time to time shown by the new legislatures is entirely occasioned by the fact that the members of the All-India Services are imposed on them from outside, and that fresh recruitment for those Services will indefinitely prolong these vested interests ; but that, once control passes from the Secretary of State to the Government of India or to the Local Government in the transferred field as the case may be, all bias and animus will disappear.” I want to know whether you agree with that statement ? Sir P. J. Fagan : No ; I do not think we have sufficient grounds for agreeing with that statement. Of course, if it should turn out so, it would be good, but I am afraid the Associations have not sufficient grounds for agreeing with the statement that there would be a sudden change of attitude. 384. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Do not you think the very fact that you want to remain outside the control of the Indian Legislature, and the new *Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-A, 13th June 1933, pp. 69-70.

674 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Government will itself be provocative enough to arouse public opinion against you ? Mr. W. H. Shoobert : Sir, we do not want to remain outside the control. We only want our existing accruing rights, our pensions and our family pensions secured. We do not wish to be outside the control in the very least. 385. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Supposing, for instance, all the rights that may be agreed upon in this Conference as being legitimate rights of the Indian Civil Servants were guaranteed to you by Indian Legislatures by Acts passed by the Local and Central Legislatures. Would that give you sufficient protection ? Sir P. J. Fagan : We are afraid of the financial situation. 386. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : That is another matter : whether the Indian Legislature will be able to find the moneys on account of your services and other matters is another matter ? Sir P. J. Fagan : Quite. 387. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : But with regard to your conditions of service, what I want to press is, suppose they were regulated by the Acts of Indian Legislatures (by rules made by the Secretary of State in Council). Do you think that would give you adequate protection or not? Sir P. J. Fagan : No. Mr. W. H. Shoobert : Such Acts could be repealed by future extremist Governments. 388. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Supposing some provision were made for that, that there would be no sudden repeal of an Act ? Sir P. J. Fagan : I think I may say that the Associations would certainly not regard that as sufficient protection. 389. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I want to make this point which you have made so much of, that there is so much hostility against you in India both on the part of the Press and the politician. Is not it the fact that you are asking for safeguards the result of which is to keep you entirely out of the purview of legitimate public opinion expressed in the Press as well as in the Legislature ? Sir P. J. Fagan : No, I do not think it keeps us outside the purview. I should say certainly not. I certainly do not think that it would keep them out of the purview of healthy public opinion. 390. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I want to put this question to you again : Do not you think that if you were under the control of laws made by the Indian Legislature with the consent of the Indian Ministers you would get far better protection from the Indian Ministers themselves when you are attacked in the Press or by the public than you are likely to get if you remain outside ? Sir P. J. Fagan : No ; I do not think the Associations would take that view. 391. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : You just now read some extracts from the