Vol. 2 · pages 726–730

705EVIDENCE : MRS. P. K. SEN AND MRS. L. MUKERJI Mrs. L. Mukerji : It is quite possible. I cannot answer that point until we see the result. C592. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I appreciate that, but I just wanted to put the point to you ? Mrs. L. Mukerji : I feel in a future time, when our women will be in a position to go into the professions, that the communal business might die out altogether. I anticipate that. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I hope so. * * * * * †C610. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : There is just one question I would like to ask you, Mrs. Sen. You have explained your views with regard to the representation of women in the Federal Lower House, and you have stated your objection to the provision made in the White Paper for indirect election ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes. C611. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I do not find anywhere your views as to the provisions made for the representation of women in the Provincial Legislatures, except, of course, that you have expressed generally that you would not like any provision which savours of communalism ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes. C612. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Have you anything to suggest on that ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : I did not quite follow the question. C613. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : In the Provincial Legislatures several seats are provided which are to be filled by women ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes. C614. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : No detailed provisions are laid down in the White Paper as to how those seats are to be filled. It is Appendix III of the White Paper, on page 93, under “General”, Madras, out of 152, 6 women ; Muhammadan, 29, including one woman. This is all the provision that exists in the White Paper, so far ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : We would like to do away with all these communities, if you would give us six seats in each of the Provinces. That would be much better, and we should be able to fill these seats with the best women available. C615. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Have you any other method by which these six seats could be filled up ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes ; capital city, for the Federal Assembly. I have already answered that question. It would be the same for the Provincial Assembly also. The capital city would be the constituent area ; it would be a small electorate. It would not mean so much expense, and women from all over the Provinces would be able to stand for the seats. C616. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : You would have one capital city to return six women in Madras ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : No. They would have their separate constituencies †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 29th July 1933, p. 2355.

706 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES for different principalities of the Province. C617. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : The question I wanted to ask was how far you agree ? Would you be prepared, as a matter of concession to the communal sentiment of the various communities, that while making arrangements on the basis of a joint electorate for the return of such women in the Legislative Councils, to have a permission reserving a certain number of seats, for instance, for the Muslim women, keeping the total the same ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : We are against communal reservation. C618. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I can quite understand your objection to having a separate electorate of Hindu women to return five Hindu women and a separate electorate of Muslim women to return one Muslim woman. What I want to know is this : Whether you have also the same objection to a system in which both the Hindu women and the Muslim women would vote together in a common constituency — a joint constituency, with this reservation, that, at least, one seat would be reserved for a Muslim woman ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : They would all vote for the Muhammadan lady. C619. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I know that you would probably be so generous that you may give more. Would you be prepared to approve a reservation being made by law that just one should be reserved for a Muslim woman ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes ; that is already there, and we have to accept that. C620. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : That may be on the basis of separate electorate, it is not stared how it would be. Therefore, I wanted to get your opinion on the matter. The detailed provisions as to how these six seats in Madras are to be filled are not found in the White Paper ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : That should be a joint electorate of men and women. C621. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I do not know. At least Mr. Butler might be able to enlighten us as to how these six seats are going to be filled ? Mrs. L. Mukerji : We do not, if it can be avoided, want any communal distinction. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I quite follow you. I am asking you whether you would be prepared to moderate your objection, to this extent, that you would have a joint electorate with one seat reserved, so as not to disturb the communal balance. Mr. Butler : I think that Dr. Ambedkar will find this at “The precise electoral machinery to be employed in the constituencies for the special women’s seats is still under consideration.” Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Therefore, I was asking whether these seats would be filled by separate electorates of women in the general constituency ; it is not made clear here. I do not know how it is done, because I find in the Table given on seats allocated under separate heads. Under “General”, six women’s seats, under “Muhammadan”, one ; that rather gives me the impression that you would have a separate electorate of Muslim women only, so that the result would be that 28 would be men, and one a woman.

707EVIDENCE : MRS. P. K. SEN AND MRS. L. MUKERJI I do not know ; I seek for information upon the point. C622. Chairman : I think we had better use this afternoon in getting information out of the witnesses. Will you return to the point ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : It would not be at least a separate women’s electorate. C623. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : If left to you, you might give them all the six, or more than that ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Quite. C624. Dr. B. R Ambedkar : I mean, in view of the fear that there may be none ? Mrs. P. K. Sen : Yes. (12) Discussion in Joint Committee on Poona Pact *Sir N. N. Sircar : May I make a short statement which probably will shorten matters ? I claim the right to put questions, if the Committee will allow it on the Communal decision, but, as a matter of fact, I do not intend to put in any questions relating to the dispute between the Hindus and Muslims, because that does not depend upon any facts that are going to be proved by any witnesses ; but I do want to ask the witnesses to give Your Lordships the facts relating to the Poona Pact. There are two more observations I may be permitted to make as regards Sir Annepu Patro’s statement as to its being mixed up, and so on, that the decision itself makes it quite clear that the result of one Province is not connected with the result in any other Province. The decision itself says that any change can be made in one Province as distinct from any other Province. As regards my friend, Mr. Zafrulla Khan’s statement, I only venture to submit this : At the Round Table Conference we were trying to find out what was the greatest measure of agreement. It was open to us to say : Unless I get 100 per cent. seats for Hindus, I will not take any further part. It is no good taking up that attitude. I beg of the Committee to enter into the merits of the question. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : May I say just a word ? I am glad that this wrangle if I may use that expression, on this side is going to be confined only to the Poona Pact, and that Sir Nripendra Sircar does not propose to reopen the question of the distribution of seats between Hindus and Muslims but might I say that the sentiments expressed by Chaudhari Zafrulla Khan with regard to the attitude of the Muslims were exactly the sentiments that I have been expressing from the very beginning when I commenced to take part in the Round Table Conference, and that I, too, consented to join in the deliberations on the understanding that the Poona Pact was an accepted proposition. I do not object, of course, to Sir Nripendra Sircar putting the facts before the Committee, because I know I will also get an opportunity to rectify any errors ; but so far as my own position is *Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 31st July 1933, p. 1356-61.

708 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES concerned, I do not think that it would be possible for me to take any further part in the Proceedings of the Committee, if, for instance, the whole question was reopened with regard to the representation of the Depressed Classes. Sir N. N. Sircar : I beg Your Lordship’s permission to hand in at this stage the following letter from myself to the Prime Minister and a cablegram from Sir Rabindranath Tagore, dated 27th July, 1933 : — LETTER FROM SIR N. N. SIRCAR TO PRIME MINISTER St. James Court, Buckingham Gate, London, S.W.I. 14th December, 1932 My Dear Prime Minister, I am forwarding to you as requested, certain telegrams. The first telegram from 25 members of Bengal Legislative Council reads as follows : “Representation from 25 members of Bengal Legislative Council. Poona Depressed Classes Pact made without consulting Bengal Hindus. No Depressed Classes problem in Bengal as elsewhere in India, as found on careful examination by Lothian Committee. Ambedkar and others had no direct knowledge of Bengal conditions, where, alleged Depressed Classes suffer no political disability. Poona Pact introduces revolutionary change, cutting at root of normal progress of Hindu society in Bengal. Earnestly urge necessity for modifying Poona Pact as affecting Bengal, as Lothian Committee Scheme meets Bengal situation fairly. Show this Premier : “B. C. Chatterji, S. M. Bose, Maharaja Dinajpur, Maharaja Cosim-bazar, Rajabahadur Nashipur, Narendra Kumar Basu, Syamaprasad Mukerji, Rai Bahadur Kamini Kumar Das, Satyendra Kumar Das, Keshabchandra Banerji, Haridhan Dutt, Satischandra Mukerji, Saratchandra Mitra, Anandamohan Poddar, Satischandra, Roychowdhary, Hanumanprasad Poddar, Kishorimohan Chowdhari, Satyakinkar Sahana, Khetramohan Roy, Debrai Mohashi, Santisekhareshwar Roy, Saratkumar Roy, P. Banerji, Surendraaiath Law, Saileswar Singh Roy.” 2. I showed the above telegram to Dr. Ambedkar, who in his turn received telegram, copy of which reads as follows : “Regarding Bengal. Hindu friends cable for revision of Poona Pact for Bengal. They defaulted twice, once before the Lothian Committee when they failed to give a list of Depressed Classes. Second when invited to Bombay September Conference nobody responded. Now they raise false cry, besides they are unjustifiably afraid of Namsudras appropriating all seats. Further Bengal Government depressed population figure is 103 lacs, vide Lothian Volume II, while we assumed for calculation of seats 75 lacs, vide Lothian, Poona Pact follows closely Lothian recommendations. Refer Mullick’s note — Lothian Volume II. In Calcutta Thakkar found general

709DISCUSSION ON POONA PACT Hindu feeling in favour of Pact. Hence Pact approved by Cabinet can’t be revised.” — Birla and Thakkar 3. I have received two further telegrams, viz : “Birla’s cable to Ambedkar. Birla not acquainted with conditions in Bengal and has absolutely no representative character there. Poona Pact in allowing 30 seats to depressed classes in Bengal, number being equal to seats allowed to Madras cannot be justified. Question to depressed classes in Bengal is certainly not at all acute and is absolutely different from that in other Provinces. Premier’s Award on this question is utmost that Bengal can accept.” “Satischandra Sen, Bijoykumar Basu, Satyendrachandra Ghosh Maulik, Amarnath Dutt, Satyendrachandra Mitra, Satyacharan Mukherjee, Satyendranath Sen, Jagadischandra Banerjee, Naba Kumar Singh Dudhoria, Bengal Non-Mahomedan Representatives present in Central Legislature.” —Amarnath Dutt “Bengal, M.L.C.S who wired previously state Birla Thakkar cabled misrepresentations. Bengal Representatives not invited to Conference leading to Poona Pact. Its terms astonished Bengal. Not being agreed, according Premier’s formula, settlement cannot bind Bengal. Lothian Committee made enquiries which castes are untouchable and unapproachable in Bengal. Provincial Franchise Committee consisting Hindu Mahommedans correctly answer. Report Volume 2, Mullick’s Note not placed before Committee, but prepared secretly. Mullick’s classification of Bengal depressed different from other Provinces covering Subarnobaniks Sahas Mahishyas admittedly outside depressed category. Also England—returned Indians, Brahmo Samaj people, even Baidyas, Kayasthas contrasted against Brahmanas. Bengal Public life free from caste consideration. High caste Hindus elected a Namsudra against Chatterjee 1923 at Madaripur. Deshbandhu disregarded orthodoxy marrying Brahmin’s daughter, but his following included all high caste people. Distribution of Namasudras vide Calcutta Gazette fourteenth July ensures their securing 20 reserved seats. Non-Namasudras alarmed at prospect. Namasudras Rajbansis rigidly exclude other depressed castes from social communion, and have less right to represent them, than high caste people who have worked for generation for their uplift. Poona Pact introduces political division Hindu Bengal, where none hitherto existed. Show Premier.” — Chatterjee and others 4. I left India in August last, I have no personal knowledge relating to the Poona Pact. 5. In your “Communal decision” it was stated, “His Majesty’s Government wish it to be most clearly understood that they themselves can be no parties to any negotiations which may be initiated with a view to revision of their decision and will not be prepared to give consideration to any