Vol. 2 · pages 736–740

715 EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS 8821. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I just want to ask this question : I want to know whether you are aware that the Sub-Committee, after having finished its work in Poona, came back to Bombay and reported what it had done to the main conference of the Hindus which had appointed the Sub-Committee ? Dr. Moonje : Yes ; it must have done. 8822. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I will put the question to Mr. Gavai, who I think was there. Mr. Gavai, you took part in the negotiations which resulted in the Poona Pact ? Mr. Gavai : Yes. 8823. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I am not putting it in an offensive manner, but you at that time belonged to what is called the Raja-Moonje Pact Party ? Mr. Gavai : Yes. 8824. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : You were present in Poona ? Mr. Gavai : I was. 8825. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : When the Pact was signed, the Sub-Committee came back to Bombay and held a meeting under the presidency of Pandit Malviya and resolution was passed by the whole of that Committee, approving of the Poona Pact ? Mr. Gavai : Yes, Dr. Moonje : On these points that Dr. Ambedkar has asked me, may I not explain ? Chairman : I think the Committee would prefer to hear the conclusion of Dr. Ambedkar’s examination. We will hear your explanation afterwards, Dr. Moonje. 8826. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : After the Sub-Committee was appointed and it went to Poona to discuss this matter with Mahatma Gandhi, there was a Session of the Hindu Mahasabha held at Delhi between 24th and 26th September, 1932? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8827. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Under the presidency of Pandit Malviya ? Dr. Moonje : No. Under the presidency of Mr. N. C. Kelkar. 8828. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Mr. Ramanand Chatterjee was present at the meeting in Delhi ? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8829. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Raja Narendranath was also present at this meeting of the Hindu Mahasabha in Delhi ? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8830. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Is it not a fact that this Pact was ratified by the Hindu Mahasabha at the Delhi Session ? Dr. Moonje : Yes ; there is no question about that. 8831. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Mr. Ramanand Chatterjee is the leading member of the caste-Hindus of Bengal ? Dr. Moonje : Yes.

716 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 8832. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : And also a very prominent member of the Hindu Mahasabha ? Dr. Moonie : Yes. Mr. J. Bannerjee : May I explain that he is not a caste-Hindu at all ; he is a non-caste-Hindu ; he is a Brahmo. 8833. Marquess of Zetland : I saw there was a misprint in the evidence before ; it is a very natural mistake. Sir Rabindranath Tagore was described as a “Brahmo” which is a very different thing from a caste-Hindu. In the evidence the word “Brahmo” became “Brahmin”, which is one of the highest castes of Hindus there is. The same thing applies to Mr. Ramanand Chatterjee ; he is a Brahmo, not a Brahmin. Is that not so ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : Yes. 8834. Mr. Zafrulla Khan : We on this side, who really do not know the details of this wish to understand it. Is it Brahmin or non-Brahmin, a question of birth, a question who is born a Brahmin ? Dr. Moonje is a Brahmin by caste, although he might give us his convictions so far as caste is concerned ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : If he adopts a different religion, he ceases to be a Hindu. 8835. Mr. M. R. Jaykar : May I ask a question on this point ? You do not mean to suggest that because a man is a Brahmo, he ceases to be Hindu? Mr. J. Bannerjee : He certainly ceases to be a Hindu by religion ; he is a non-Hindu. When he marries he has to describe himself as a non-Hindu. 8836. Mr. M. R. Jaykar : I am not speaking of the matter in connection with the law of marriage or anything of that kind, but do you say, as a Hindu, that if a Brahmin becomes a Brahmo in religion he ceases to be a Hindu or a Brahmin ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : He ceases to be a Brahmin, certainly. 8837. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Dr. Moonje, apart from the question of whether Mr. Ramanand Chatterjee is a Brahmo or Hindu, he has been taking a very active part in the movement of the Hindu Mahasabha ? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8838. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : He has been protagonist of the Hindu interest ? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8839. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Raja Narendranath comes from the Punjab ? Dr. Moonje : Yes. 8840. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : He is the President of the local Hindu Mahasabha ? Dr. Moonje : He is President of the Hindu Mahasabha too. May I explain, my Lord Chairman ? 8841. Chairman : If you please ? Dr. Moonje : I was called to the meeting in Bombay by Pandit

717 EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS Malviya when the meeting took place and when the discussions were going on. I got up, Dr. Ambedkar will remember, and I said that when Mahatma Gandhi was not prepared even to grant reservation of seats to the Depressed Classes in joint electorates, it is not possible to any compromise on this question, in order that he may give up his fast. However, to our great relief, on the second day news came that Mahatma Gandhi was prepared to recognise the reservation of seats in joint electorates. I was greatly pleased. Then at a certain meeting, where the principle of the Poona Pact was being evolved. I distinctly told at that time Pandit Malviya that this principle of the Poona Pact which is being evolved is based upon separate electorates. I personally, and the Hindu Mahasabha as a body, have a fundamental objection to separate electorates, and I personally and the Hindu Mahasabha as a body will not accept this principle of the Poona Pact. Then of course I could not go to Poona, along with the other members, for carrying on the negotiations. Then, to my satisfaction, having come to know that Mahatma Gandhi was prepared to accept the reservation of seats, I said “The danger of Gandhi’s life is over,” and therefore I went to Delhi. In Delhi, when the session of the Hindu Mahasabha was in progress, we received the wire that Gandhi had accepted the Poona Pact and, naturally, everybody was anxious to save the life of Gandhi; and we passed a resolution in the Hindu Mahasabha— 8842. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Accepting the Pact ? Dr. Moonje: Yes, accepting the Pact. But it must be understood here that on the spot, Raja Narendranath on behalf of the Punjab protested and protested in vain, but of course the majority of the whole House was at that time in fear and dread— 8843. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: Under the shadow of the fast ? Dr. Moonje: That if the Pact was not accepted, Mahatma Gandhi’s life would not be saved, and therefore they accepted the Pact. Those are all the details. One particular point is this : in our negotiations with Dr. Ambedkar during the First and Second Round Table Conferences, Dr. Ambedkar has agreed, I made an agreement with the Hindu Mahasabha that he was fully satisfied if, under a system of joint electorates, reservation of seats on the population basis would be granted to him. On one occasion, during the Second R.T.C. when Dr. Ambedkar thought that there was some ambiguity in this point. I suggested to him that a joint letter should be sent to the Prime Minister, signed by himself and myself, saying that the difference between the Depressed Classes and the Hindus were settled by this arrangement; that is, reservation of seats on the population basis in joint electorates with the Hindus. 8844. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: To which I did not agree ? Dr. Moonje: To which, at that time, Dr. Ambedkar did not agree ; but at the First Round Table Conference, Dr. Ambedkar did agree and, by his consent, the fact was announced to the American newspapers.

718 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I do not accept that. 8845. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: May I ask a question, Dr. Moonje ? You were speaking about the Hindu Mahasabha accepting the Poona Pact at Delhi ? Dr. Moonje: Yes. 8346. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: Do you mean to say that the Hindu Mahasabha accepted the Poona Pact, not on its merits, but because of the satisfaction that Mahatma Gandhi’s life was saved ? Dr. Moonje : I have already said that when the Pact was being evolved I distinctly said that the principle under which the Pact was being evolved could be acceptable to me personally or to the Hindu Mahasabha as a whole because it was based on separate electorates. Mr. Bhai Parmanand : May I add one word ? The Punjab Hindus have a similar feeling towards the Poona Pact as the Hindus of the Bengal. Raja Narendranath was opposed to it on the very day when the Hindu Mahasabha passed a resolution accepting it in a hurry. Within 48 hours of the acceptance of the Poona Pact at Bombay there was a Hindu protest in the open meeting. The Secretary of the Punjab Hindus also made a protest, and Dr. Gokalchand sent a Cablegram to the Premier here that the Punjab Hindus were opposed to it. The Hindu feeling is still opposed to it. There are articles in the newspapers, which I have not with me, that the Poona Pact has affected the Hindus of the Punjab very badly. Then one thing more, and that is that certain Scheduled Tribes of the Depressed Classes, who regard themselves recorded in the Census Report as Hindus, as Butwalas, Barawalas, Kabir-panthas and Domes have not been included among the Scheduled Tribes of the Depressed Classes. They are carrying on agitation on that behalf; the names of these Tribes are Butwalas, Barawalas, Kabirpanthas and Domes. They amount to about 50,000 population in the Punjab because they got themselves recorded in the Census Report as Oriyas. They are not mentioned in the Scheduled Tribes ; and they are creating this agitation in order to be included among them. So that shows a sort of prejudice against those Tribes of the so-called Depressed Classes amongst all those who describe themselves as Hindus. Therefore, my request to the Joint Select Committee is to look into this matter, and at least give them a right in the new tribes. 8847. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: His last point is not clear. These particular tribes whom you have mentioned want to be scheduled ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand : Yes. 8848. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: And they have not been scheduled ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: This is another aspect— 8849. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: I want to clear the point up. Not exactly depressed as those who have been put in scheduled ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: My point is this, that simply because they have described themselves as Hindus in Scheduled Caste, they have been excluded from this right which has been given to the other tribes.

719 EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS 8850. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: The right to be scheduled ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: Yes. Dr. Moonje: May I explain this point ? As regards the Punjab and as regards Bengal the objection of the Hindu Mahasabha is that after careful examination, both by the people and the Lothian Committee, it was found that the question of depressed classes does not exist in Punjab, and the question of depressed classes in Bengal is not so insistent or is not so keen as to require any very great consideration. It was this point which has been made a grievance, and my friend, Mr. Parmanand, says that these people are complaining that they are not included in the depressed classes because they have been made Arya Samajis. The point is that if the depressed class question in Punjab is to be created as a vested interest in separate electorates, then these depressed classes have a right to be included, which are now being scheduled as depressed classes. If that vested interest is not to be created then those people have no claim to be included in those depressed classes. 8851. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Might I ask one question : You object to the Poona Pact being applied to Punjab because, in your opinion, there are no depressed classes there ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: Not in the sense in which there are in most of other Provinces. 8852. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: In some sense, are there or are there not ? Are there depressed classes in the Punjab or are there not ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: They are not Untouchables, they are not Unapproachables. No distinction is kept, and it is in the Report of the Simon Commission and the Government of India Report also that the distinction between caste-Hindus and the depressed classes does not exist in the Punjab. 8853. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Might I ask you this question? How do you reconcile yourself : Your first position is that there are no depressed classes and therefore, there is no provision for them, and your second complaint is that certain depressed classes are not included in the scheduled list? Pandit Nanak Chand: I have dealt with this point, and I will give you an explanation. As far as unapproachability and untouchability is concerned, it does not exist, or if it exists, it is almost negligible ; there is very little. This is admitted by the Government officials, by the Sikhs, by the Mahommedans and by the Hindus, but certain classes have been scheduled as depressed classes and certain others of equal status, whether economically backward or otherwise, deprived of certain rights, namely, of purchasing land, and so forth, want to be scheduled along with those others because they are on the same social status.