Vol. 2 · pages 746–750

725EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS Mr. M. R. Jayakar: Bengal is represented in the Central Legislature. Sir Hari Singh Gour: With reference to an imputation made by Dr. Ambedkar, that when Sir Harry Haig, the Home Member, made an announcement to the Legislative Assembly there was no protest from any member. I wish to draw the attention of the Joint Committee to the fact that it is not in accordance with the practice of the Legislative Assembly when an announcement of a decision by His Majesty’s Government is made for any reference on any protest to be addressed by any member of the House. 8888. Lieut. Colonel Sir H. Gidney: I was in the House when the statement was made by Sir Harry Haig, and it was met by universal acclamation ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: I was also there, but there was no acclamation about it Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: There was applause, if you will take a word as it was given. 8889. Lieut. Colonel Sir H. Gidney: I meant applause, yes ? Mr. Bhai Parmanand: Some people might have done it. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The whole statement is given in the Legislative Council proceedings for the 26th September 1932, Volume 5, No. 5, and the statement is concluded there is in brackets “applause”. The same statement was made in the Council of State. What I want to put is this, is it not a fact that the following gentlemen represented caste-Hindus in the Legislative Assembly ?—(Naming). Then in the Council of State there are the following :—(Naming them.) Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: My answer is that they did not realise the repercussions of the Pact and they are now unanimous in condemning it. Mr. Bhai Parmanand: May I explain this point ? 8890. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I do not know that there is any explanation needed. They are members of the Assembly and they did not protest. With regard to the protests in the Bengal Province itself after the Pact in September 1932, there was a session of the Bengal Legislative Council in November, 1932 ? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: Yes. 8891. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: There was no formal resolution moved in the Council protesting against the application of the Poona Pact to Bengali? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: No. 8892. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am referring to the Report. Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: 1 must reply to this question. The first thing we did was to get together all the influential Hindu members of the Council within a short time of the Council Meeting, and we decided that we should jointly ..... 8893. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : May I have an answer to my question, and then we can have an explanation. I want to know whether there was

726 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES any formal resolution moved in the Bengal Legislative Council in November Session which met immediately after the acceptance of the Poona Pact protesting formally against this. That is what I want to know, was there a. resolution ? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: Undoubtedly, I did put in a resolution protesting against the Poona Pact in the November Session, but I was induced to withdraw it by the joint representations of Mr. Rasik Biswas, a member of the Namsudras, an influential member, and Pandit Malaviya, but both of them assured me that they would get Dr. Ambedkar to hold another meeting and to revise the Poona Pact in view of the facts which are placed before them and they repeatedly requested me not to press it to a division in the Council without giving them this chance. 8894. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Was it moved ? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee : They induced me to withdraw it and on the ground. 8895. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It was not moved ? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: I withdrew it. 8896. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It was not moved ? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: I say I withdrew it. 8897. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You had given notice of it? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: I gave notice of it, and, on the representation of Mr. Rasik Biswas and Pandit Malaviya, I withdrew it. I did not move it. 3898. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: In the March Session of 1933, the motion that was discussed was a special motion. The ordinary motion which stood in the name of Mr. Shanti Shekhareswar Ray was not moved ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: It could not be reached. 8899. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: No priority was sought for it ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: Priority was sought for it but priority could not be obtained. There was no time to reach it. Subsequently a special resolution was moved by me. 8900. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: A month after that resolution was passed, in the March Session of 1933 in the Bengal Legislative Council, a public meeting was held in Calcutta in the Albert Hall, on the 21st April, 1933. It was presided over by one Mr. Samal, and that meeting passed a resolution condemning the attitude of the Bengal Legislative Council in protesting against the Poona Pact ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : Very possibly. 8901. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The proceedings of that Committee are published in full in the “Liberty” of 22nd April, 1933. Is that a fact, or is not? Mr. B. C. Chatterjee: Very possibly. I do not know myself. I was in England. 8902. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You said that the Bengal Government at the time the Poona Pact was accepted was somewhere in Darjeeling, and that no Hindu was consulted. You said that in answer to Sir Nripendra Sircar?

727EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS Mr. B. C. Chatterjee : Yes. 8903. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will you tell what was the composition of the Bengal Executive in September, 1932 ? Who were its members, and what was communal composition ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: There were three Bengali Members—no, two Bengali Hindu Members in the Bengal Government. 8904. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is it your suggestion that the Bengal Government which had two Bengal caste-Hindu members on it did not approve of the Poona Pact ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: I have nothing to suggest about the Government but I am quite sure that both the Hindu members of the Government had disapproved of it, and had emphatically protested against it. 8905. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: With respect to the Central Executive you have said one Bengal Hindu was there, Sir B. L. Mitter. Is that so ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: Yes ; I cannot say anything about Sir B. L. Mitter, but I would ask you to refer to the present member of the Viceroy’s Executive Council. 8906. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It has been suggested by Sir Nripendra Sircar in the course of his examination that the whole thing was accepted by His Majesty in a sort of emergency created by the fast of Mahatma Gandhi. What I want to put to you is this : Is it not a fact that the first letter written by Mahatma Gandhi to the Government was not dated the 18th August, but was dated the 11th March, 1932 (that letter is addressed to Sir Samuel Hoare); it is practically five months before the letter referred to by Sir Nripendra Sircar, and that is what he says. That is before the Communal Decision was given, that is my point. This is his statement : “Dear Sir Samuel, you will perhaps recollect that at the end of my speech at the Round Table Conference when the Minorities’ claim was presented I had said that I should resist with my life the grant of separate electorates to the Depressed Classes. This was not said in the heat of the moment nor by way of any rhetoric. It was meant to be a serious statement”, and so on. Then he says “I have therefore respectfully to inform His Majesty’s Government that in the event of their decision creating separate electorate for the Depressed Classes I must fast unto death.” The threat to fast was not given in the letter of the 18th August, after the Communal Decision was given, but was given in the letter of the 11th March, 1932 ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : Quite true. 8907. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: And His Majesty’s Government gave separate electorate to the Depressed Classes notwithstanding this threat in the letter of the 11th March ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: Our complaint against the Pact is that it perpetuates every evil of separate electorates. 8908. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is another matter. You had better say that to Mahatma Gandhi; I cannot discuss it ?

728 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Mr. J. Bannerjee : The award of His Majesty’s Government is much more acceptable to us than the Poona Pact. 8909. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I will ask you one or two questions about that. Your complaint is that the Poona Pact gives a larger number of seats to the Depressed Classes than were given in His Majesty’s Government’s Award. I want to draw your attention to the letter of the Prime Minister to Mr. Gandhi dated 8th September, 1932, and this is what he said. “The number of territorial seats allotted to Muslims is naturally conditioned by the fact that it is impossible for them to gain any further territorial seats and that in most Provinces they enjoy weightage in excess of their population ratio.” I want to draw your special attention to this. “The number of special seats to be filled from special Depressed Class constituencies will be seen to be small and has been fixed, not to provide a quota numerically appropriate for the representation of the whole of the Depressed Class population, but solely to procure a minimum number of spokesmen for the Depressed Classes in the Legislature who are chosen exclusively by the Depressed Classes. The proportion of their special seats is everywhere much below the population percentage of the Depressed Classes ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : Quite so, because it is expected that many of the Depressed Classes, especially in Bengal, will come in through the general constituencies. 8910. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: What I want to draw your attention to is this : In giving the Communal Award and apportioning seats to the Depressed Classes His Majesty’s Government and the Prime Minister have definitely admitted that those seats are not in proportion to the population ratio and were much below ? Mr. J. Bannerjee : Quite true but at the same time, the Prime Minister there distinctly makes it clear that the number allotted to the Depressed Classes is less than their numerical proportion, because he specifically mentions the case of Bengal, because in Bengal many of the Depressed Class members would be sure to come in through general constituencies. 8911. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: He never mentioned anything about Bengal, I can assure you ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: Most certainly he has done so ; I have read the award carefully. 8912. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. With regard to this, there was a session held — the seventh session of the Bengal Provincial Hindu Conference at Malda, somewhere between the 17th and 19th of September, 1932, under the presidency of Mr. Ramanand Chatterjee. Is that so ? Mr. J. Bannerjee: Very possibly. 8913. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: In the seventh session of the Bengal Provincial Hindu Conference at Malda ?

729EVIDENCE : DR. B. S. MOONJE AND OTHERS Mr. J. Bannerjee: Very possibly. I do not know ; I have no personal knowledge. 8914. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to read to you a resolution that was passed at this Bengal Provincial Hindu Conference, published in “Liberty” of the 19th September, 1932 : “This Conference appeals to the so-called Depressed Classes not to demand representation on the basis of separate electorates in the coming Constitution, and affirms its adherence to the Raja Moonje Pact and its readiness to concede representation to the Depressed Classes according to their population strength through joint electorate even if it means surrender to them of the majority of seats allotted to the Hindus ? Dr. Moonje: May I reply to that question ? The resolution was passed. We stick to it, and my friend Mr. Chatterjee had made a sporting offer to Dr. Ambedkar. Is he prepared to see what his number would be according to the population basis, the Depressed Classes being defined as untouchables and unapproachables ? We art prepared to make this sporting offer to Dr. Ambedkar, and let the whole question be decided in Bengal and the Punjab as to what is the number of the Depressed Classes according to the definition that the Depressed Classes member is one who is untouchable or unapproachable. We make the sporting offer. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I do not want to make the fate of my people the sport of party politics and I am afraid I cannot accept that offer. * * * * * †9269. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: May I put a supplementary question ? Do I understand that you include the depressed classes also in your Hindu Mahasabha ? Do you claim to represent them ? Dr. Moonje: My contention is that I represent also the depressed classes and my friend, Mr. Gavai, who is sitting by my side, is a representative of the Depressed Classes on the deputation of Hindu Mahasabha and it has never been proved whether I represent the majority or whether Mr. Gavai represents the majority among the Depressed Classes. 9270. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is a different matter. I want to know, do you represent the depressed classes ? Dr. Moonje: I represent the majority portion of the depressed classes also. 9271. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: As far as I am concerned I absolutely disagree with that position. What does Mr. Gavai have to say ? I still repeat the fact that the Depressed Classes do not belong to the organisation that Dr. Moonje represents so far as his memorandum is concerned. I know as a matter of fact that the Hindus of the Punjab have repudiated it ? Dr. Moonje: What? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That part of your memorandum No. 57 has been repudiated by the depressed classes of the Punjab. †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. 11-C, 31st July 1933, p. 1466.