Vol. 2 · pages 756–760

735EVIDENCE : MR. M.K. ACHARYA AND OTHERS prevailing there a Naiyadi cannot walk along the road ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: He can walk along the public roads today. 10,808. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: And if he wants to sell anything, or buy anything, he has to place his goods or articles that he wants to sell some 60 yards away from the street and call out from there ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: That is not correct information, so far as I know. 10,809. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I give you that information? Mr. M. K. Acharya: That is not correct; I may deny it. I have been for many years in Malabar, and I know Malabar better than my honourable friend. 10,810. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The point I am going to ask you is something further. Assume my facts are correct ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: When they are incorrect, how can I assume that ? 10,811. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The question is this : Supposing a law was passed making it a crime for any Hindu to prevent a Naiyadi from walking along the public street in Malabar, would you say that would affect the fundamentals of your religion ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: As the honourable gentleman presumes on wrong facts, there is no such custom and there is no such law. If there were such a custom and if there were any need for such a law, then that law would not conflict with any fundamental of religion. ***** 110,899. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I would like to clear up a matter. Mr. Acharya, you stated that Pandit Malaviya has repudiated the implications of the Poona Pact. I want to ask you a question on that : Is not it a fact that Mr. Gandhi says that the Poona Pact, apart from settling the political problem, imposed a certain obligation on the Hindus to abolish untouchability and to open the doors of the Hindu temples to the untouchables ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: That is what Mr. Gandhi says, I think. 10,900. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Pandit Malaviya says that is not the case : that the Poona Pact does not impose any obligation on the Hindus to do that and it is therefore that he says he does not agree with the implications of the Poona Pact. Is not that the case ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: Yes. That is so 10,901. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It does not touch the political side of the matter. Mr. Gandhi says the Poona Pact imposes an obligation on the Hindus to open the doors of the temples. Pandit Malaviya says there is no such implication at all ? Mr. M. K. Acharya: Yes. †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 2nd August 1933, p. 1720.

736 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES (15) Lieut.-Colonel C. E. Bruce, C.S.I., CLE., C.B.E., Lieut.-General Sir George Macmunn, K.C.B., K.C.S.L, D.S.O., Mr. F. F. Lyall CLE., Mr. Waris Ameer Ali I.C.S., Mr. O. C. G. Hayter, and Hon. Mr. Justice W. A. Le Rossignol. †12,465. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Were there Ministers in India at the time when you were District Judge ? Lt. Col. C. E. Bruce: There were, but they were not concerned with me ; I should say, not elected Ministers, but I am referring now to the future in this Memorandum when, as I understand, the proposed Constitution— 12,466. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I thought you were speaking from your experience ? Lt. Col. C. E. Bruce: May I explain to you ? This refers to the future when the proposal is to place Ministers under elected Legislatures and responsible to elected Legislatures and liable to stand or fall with their Cabinets. Sir Hart Singh Gour: Your words are prophetic. (16) Wing Commander A. W. H. James, M.P., and Dr. J. H. Hutton, C.I.E., I.C.S. ‡D29. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Cannot they plead tribal law as their customary law ? Wg. Comdr. A.W.H. James: No, it is not recognised by the High Court Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The High Court would recognise any custom ? Wg. Comdr. A. W. H. James: It is not necessary to establish that it is a Hindu or Muhammadan custom. If there is no law laid down in that sense, the custom would govern. Ordinarily, that would be the thing. I am not speaking with first hand knowledge. ***** §D222. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Dr. Hutton, in reply to a question by Major Attlee, I think you stated that you would prefer that the administration of the excluded areas should be a Central subject, rather than a Provincial subject ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: That is my own feeling. ***** D224. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I just want to turn to some other matters which have been discussed in your paper, I think you are proceeding upon the basis that these people should under no circumstances come within the purview of the new constitution ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: That is so. D225. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is the hypothesis and the basis upon which you are proceeding ? †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 6th October 1933, p. 1612. ‡Ibid., Vol. II-D, 16th October 1933, p. 2376. §Ibid., pp. 2388-90.

737EVIDENCE : WING COMMANDER A. W. H. JAMES AND ANOTHER Dr. J. H. Hutton: I admitted that in some circumstances where they are very scattered living among other populations, it would be otherwise. D226. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But in the main, that is the hypothesis upon which you are proceeding ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes, in the main. D227. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: What is the ideal that you have before you for these people ? I will crystallise my question so that you may answer it better. Dr. J. H. Hutton: The minimum of interference by anybody. D228. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Let me put it in the way I visualise the question. Is it your ideal that these primitive people should continue to remain primitive people without having anything to do with the affairs of the rest of India, or do you propose that the destinies of these people should be so regulated that in course of time they should cease to be an isolated part of humanity and take part in the public affairs of their country as the rest of Indians are doing now ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I think that the second is my ideal. D229. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That they should not continue permanently as primitive people ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: The question would have to be that, if possible, ultimately they should take a part in the life of their country. D230. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is what I say ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: But it is possible that in some cases you might never be able to achieve that ideal. D231. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Let us, first of all, ascertain what the ideals are ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes. D232. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am not introducing the religious question at all, whether they should be this or that ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: No. D233. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: What you do point out is this : You do say, and I think it is your ideal, that they should become part and parcel of the civil society ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes. D234. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: And outgrow their tribal condition ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes, I think that is necessary. D235. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Let me therefore proceed further. If that is the view, is it not desirable that there should be a common cycle of participation both for the civilised people of India and for these primitive people ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Not yet. D236. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : So that there may be a percolation of the ideas which are agitating the minds of the civilised part of Indian society into this primitive class of people ?

738 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Dr. J. H. Hutton: I think the ideas will percolate without any difficulty. D237. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: How? Dr. J. H. Hutton: What troubles me is that unless they are separated they are likely to be destroyed by too abrupt contact. That is what has happened nearly everywhere else in the world. D238. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I do not know but I do want to submit to you for your consideration whether if, as you have admitted, that is your ideal, namely, that they shall some day become part of the Indian society, segregation, and so complete and so rigid a segregation as you propose, is the proper way for the realisation of that ideal ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I think it is the only possible one myself. D239. Sir Reginald Craddock: Might I put a question ? There are various educational agencies going on in some of those tribes. Is not that the case ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes, certainly.... D240. Sir Reginald Craddock: Are they chiefly missions, or has the Government any schools ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: The Government has a number of schools. D241. Sir Reginald Craddock: That would be one of the points that you would refer to in connection with the improvement of these classes would not you ? Dr. J. H. Hutton : I should. D242. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to proceed a little further. I see from your paper (correct me if I am wrong) that you are troubled about two things. You think that a contact or incorporation, if I may use that term, of the educated or the advanced or the civilised Indians, and of the primitive people in one constitution is likely to result, first of all, in their exploitation by the advanced classes or shall I say, the civilised part of the Indian society ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes. D243. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Secondly, I suppose I am right in summarising it thus, that you are afraid that sufficient attention will not be paid to them in the new Council ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes. D244. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Let me put to you one question. I will take the case of their land. Is it not a fact that this question, namely, of keeping the land in, the hands of the primitive people as far as possible that they may not be rendered a class of landless labourers, is also the problem which is before many of the agricultural classes in India and that even for their protection it has become necessary to pass Acts like the Deccan Agricultural Relief Act in Bombay and the Alienation of Land Act in the Punjab and several other cases ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I believe such Acts have been passed. D245. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: My suggestion is this, that if these primitive

739EVIDENCE : WING COMMANDER A. W. H. JAMES AND ANOTHER people are brought under the same constitution as the rest of India they would not be quite alone in their demand for keeping the moneylender out and seeing that the land remains in the hands of those who cultivate it. There would be many others who would have a similar demand to make in the Legislature. The point I want to make is that they would not be isolated ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: The point which I should be inclined to answer was that the proof of the pudding was in the eating, and, as far as experience went, it has shown that they always have been done out of their land. D246. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But, Dr. Hutton, would you mind making this distinction, that the Legislatures, as they are composed today, and as they were composed some time ago, are not going to be the same as the Legislatures that will be composed under the White Paper ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: Yes. D247. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You would have a certain amount of representation drawn from the general electorate who would favour the poorer classes. The experience of the last Legislatures would be no safe guide in a matter of this kind ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I would sooner be on the safe side and exclude them. D248. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I do not know, but you are not prepared to deny the fact that they would have many friends in the Legislature ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I would not admit that. I should like to be convinced first that they would have many friends. There may be others with similar interests, but they would have very little in common with them individually. D249. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Yes, but I mean so far as the general question of protection for a class similarly situated is concerned ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I can conceive that a Musselman cultivator in Sihat would demand the maximum of protection for himself and the maximum of non-protection for his neighbours. D250. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Do you think the Legislature would go to the length of saying that certain laws which are necessary in the interests of Indians are not to be extended, and that the protection of those laws is not to be given to the primitive classes ? Dr. J. H. Hutton: No, I do not think they would go as far as that. D251. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: How would the discrimination arise? Dr. J. H. Hutton: I think the primitive classes might have extreme difficulty in obtaining the necessary protection. There is no guarantee with the depressed classes that the cultivator will obtain the necessary protection under the new constitution. D252. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Quite true; I agree with you. There can be no protection that the other classes probably would not club together and prevent protection being given to some other minorities ? The fear is legitimate, but taking into calculation all the forces on the one side and all the forces on the other, the point I want to make to you is that the fear, that