Vol. 2 · pages 806–810

785 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS 13,151. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Now, with regard to Proposal 114, there is a proviso tacked on to it that the concurrent power shall not be exercised so as to impose a financial burden. What I would like to know is this. If there is a dispute that a particular proposal does impose a financial burden, one party contending that it does not, another party contending that it does, now is this dispute to be resolved ? Largely and broadly, for instance, the Central Government proposes new service to be carried on by the new Provinces, one could draw the conclusion that such a thing would impose a financial burden, but there might be cases on the border-line where there might be a dispute ? Sir Samuel Hoare: As the provisions stand at present, recourse would be to the Federal Court. That may not, however, be sufficiently comprehensive a method and, as I said the other day, we are considering the possibility of some kind of arbitral procedure to apply in cases that were not suited for settlement by the Federal Court. 13,152. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: It would fall at present under paragraph 155(i) ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, the Federal Court. 13,153. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: There is just one more question I would like to ask you, Secretary of State, because I am not clear about it What I want to know is this : With regard to these administrative relations, first of all, is the Central Government bound to employ the Provincial Governments as its agents ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, in the concurrent field. 13,154. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It is bound to? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,155. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It cannot employ its own agents ? Sir Samuel Hoare: It is our intention that the administration in the concurrent field should be Provincial. 13,156. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Subject to a question of whether its directions can be given or not—that is another matter ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,157. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Then it would also follow that the Provincial Governments are bound to take up the work of the agency of the Central Government if they are called upon ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, under the Federal Law. ***** †13,411. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Also the fact that the backward classes are included in the Communal Award by having a certain number of seats assigned to them. Would that not also bring them under the definition of “minorities” ? I mean if, as you said just now, the minorities would be those communities that are covered by and included in the Communal Award, I should imagine the Backward Classes also would be included in the Communal Award ? † Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 17th October 1933. p. 1206.

786 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Sir Samuel Hoare: I think after this discussion I had better look once again into this very difficult question of these comparatively small bodies of people scattered about outside the Excluded Areas, and perhaps Members of the Committee and the Delegates, will also think over the best way of meeting what appears to be a rather general desire. 13,412. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Might I draw your attention, Secretary of State, to the peculiar position occupied by the Criminal Tribes. The Criminal Tribes are more or less scattered in ‘the general population. I am speaking of the particular experience of Bombay ; I suppose it is so in other Provinces. Now in order to protect the Criminal Tribes, which are, as I say, scattered in the general mass of the population, there is, I think, a Government of India Act called the Criminal Tribes Act. I am giving an illustration in order to suggest a method of protecting them. That Act gives the Governors some powers to make regulations with regard to the movements of these people and their interests. Would it not be possible for the Governor under paragraph 108 to pass some such regulation affecting the mode of living or protection of these people, although they may be scattered ? Sir Samuel Hoare: It would only be possible under these clauses in the Excluded and partially Excluded Areas. 13,413. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: What I wish to put to you is this : Would it not be open, for instance, to the Governor under paragraph 108, once he has got a definition of a person belonging to a tribal area or an aboriginal class, to make certain legislation affecting him whether he stayed in the Excluded Area or whether he stayed in the population, as is the case with the Criminal Classes ? The legislation of the Criminal Classes affects the members of the particular tribe no matter where he stays ? Sir Malcolm Hailey; The Criminal Tribes Act is no longer a Government of India Act They have become matters of Provincial Legislation. The Criminal Tribes Act gives to the Local Government not specifically to the Governor, power to control the movements, to register and restrict in various ways persons who fall within the definition of Criminal Tribes as notified by the Local Government Therefore it would be difficult to apply that analogy to the extension of the special protection of the scattered aboriginals or Backward Classes. In any case, that is a matter which the local Legislature could undertake now of its own initiative. My point was that it gives no special power to the Governor as apart from the Local Government 13,414. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But under paragraph 108 the Governor could, for instance, by notification classify people as belonging to aboriginal or Backward Areas, and then pass legislation affecting them, no matter where they stayed ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I do not think he could do that under paragraph 108. Under paragraph 108 he could only deal with people living in the scheduled territory. *****

787 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS †13,530. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to ask you one or two questions to clear up the financial side of this problem. I want to ask a question, first of all, with regard to financing what are called the partially excluded areas ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,531. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I take it that there would be a common budget, the provincial budget, in which the moneys provided for the partially excluded area would also be included ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,532. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: In that case, the whole budget, of course, would be open to discussion by the Legislature ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, subject to paragraph 109. 13,533. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am coming to that. It is only when the Governor exercises his special responsibility under paragraph 70 that they would go outside the purview of the Legislature ? Is not that so ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, and paragraph 109. 13,534. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But ordinarily they would be part of the provincial budget ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,535. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to ask a similar question with regard to the wholly excluded areas. I find that the special responsibility of the Governor under paragraph 70( f), is confined to partially excluded areas only? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,536. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That means that for the administration of the wholly excluded areas the Governor could not draw upon the provincial funds? Sir Samuel Hoare: Dr. Ambedkar’s very acute mind has discovered a gap in the White Paper. That is so. 13,537. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: He could not draw upon them ? Sir Samuel Hoare: As drafted he could not draw upon the provincial funds. It is an omission that we propose to set right in any final draft. 13,538. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Another paragraph is 49 to which I also want to draw your attention in this connection. There sub-clause (v) says that the expenditure required for excluded areas shall be the special responsibility of the Governor-General ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,539. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Do I take it that in the administration of the wholly excluded area the Governor, who presumably would be the agent of the Governor-General, would have to depend upon such moneys as may be supplied to him by the Governor-General in the exercise of his special responsibility ? Sir Samuel Hoare: No; the Governor himself will ask for the money from the Province. † Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 17th October 1933, p. 1218.

788 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 13,540. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: So you do propose to amend the provision dealing with the special responsibilities of the Governor to enable him to draw upon provincial funds for the administration of the wholly excluded areas also ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: Does it not now fall under paragraph 96, sub-paragraph (b) : “The Governor will cause a statement of the estimated revenues”, etc., and then you have given power to specify separately those additional proposals (if any), whether under the votable or non-votable heads, which the Governor regards as necessary for the fulfilment of any of his “special responsibilities”. Special responsibilities include expenditure to be spent on the partially excluded areas. 13,541. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am talking about wholly excluded areas ? Sir Samuel Hoare: The point Dr. Ambedkar has raised deals with totally Excluded Areas and, by an error in drafting (it is nothing more than that) it would appear that the Provincial Governor, while he could draw upon the provincial funds for partially Excluded Areas, could not draw upon the provincial funds for the totally Excluded Areas. That is an omission in drafting. ***** †13,722. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Might I ask just one question arising out of the questions put by Mr. Joshi. I just want to draw the attention of the Secretary of State to a difficulty which I feel. Under paragraph 109 as drafted the distinction made between the Excluded Area and the partially Excluded Area is on the basis that in the partially Excluded Area discussion is possible or the Governor has the power to disallow it, while in the case of an Excluded Area, the Governor is prohibited from allowing any discussion. My difficutly is this : Yesterday, I think in answer to a question by Major Attlee, you stated, Secretary of State, that the contribution which the Centre was bound to make to Assam in order to cover the deficit arising out of the Excluded Area there was not to be an earmarked amount but was to be part of the general revenues of the Province of Assam. I suppose I am correct in saying that that was what you stated ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I think I left the question somewhat open as to whether it should be a specific grant or whether it should be merged in the general grant. 13,723. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The impression that I formed was that you said you did not think that it would be an earmarked amount ? Sir Samuel Hoare: No. I think what I said, or anyhow what I intended to say, was that in the figures that we had been discussing we had assumed that it would be part of the general fund, but as to whether that was the best way of dealing with it I had an open mind. 13,724. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Very well. I will take another aspect of the thing. In answer to a question which I put you stated that so far as the † Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 18th October 1933, pp. 1223-24.

789 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS financing of the Excluded Area was concerned you were going to rectify the omission in the White Paper and allow the Governor of the Province to draw upon the general fund of the Province of Assam for the expenditure that he was likely to incur under the Excluded Area ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 13,725. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The difficulty that I feel is this, that if the Governor is to have the power to draw money from the Provincial Fund of Assam in order to carry on that administration in the Excluded Area, is it consistent with this provision in paragraph 109 that the Legislature should be altogether prohibited from discussing the affairs of the Excluded Area which is supposed to provide that money ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I think Dr. Ambedkar does raise a difficult case. It is not a case in which a very large sum is involved, for this reason, that by far the greater part of the expenditure upon the totally Excluded Area of Assam will be found from Federal funds, but I think it may be assumed that there will be a sum in addition to that needed. 13,726. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: As you said yesterday, in all these areas where there will be partially Excluded Areas the Budget would be a common Budget, unless, of course, the Governor certified an extra amount under his extra responsibility, in which case the Budget as a whole would be placed before the Legislature and open to discussion. I do not see how the difficulty would be got over ? Sir Samuel Hoare: We had considered the advantage in a case of that kind of proceeding, say, by a contract but get over a period of years. What I am anxious to avoid are frequent discussions. 13,727. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I suppose the purpose could be best served by having a common provision for both, prohibiting discussion and allowing the Governor the power to prohibit it or disallow it, whichever he thought necessary ? Sir Samuel Hoare: It was pressed upon us very strongly by the people working in these tracts that there was a great advantage in excluding discussions in the case of the totally Excluded Areas, but I have always seen the difficulty of the expenditure in Assam from provincial funds. I think the Committee and the Delegates might consider whether supposing there was a contract budget for a period of years when the contract was renewed there might then be a discussion; but even that (I say it so that the Committee should know the whole position) is contrary to the views of a good many of the experts. 13,728. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But I suppose the purpose of the experts and the purpose that you have in view would be very well served by having this power of the Governor to allow a resolution and discussion ? Sir Samuel Hoare: What we wanted to avoid was the Governor constantly having to refuse discussions of this kind. It would put him into a difficult position, and we do not. contemplate in the case of totally Excluded Areas that there would be discussions, and we do not want to take any action