Vol. 14, Part II · pages 116–120

896 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Coming to the clause under discussion personally, I would prefer that the provision should remain unchanged, so far as professing the religion is concerned. My hon. friend Dr. Ambedkar and a few others have sought to amend the provision by saying that this Code shall apply to Hindus by religion. It is very difficult for anybody to prove that he is by religion a Hindu. What does the word ‘religion’ indicate. The word ‘religion’ is derived from religio, to bind. Can I say that I am a Hindu by religion ? I may say that I am born of Hindu parents, that I am a son of a Hindu and therefore I am a Hindu. It would be difficult to say that I am a Hindu by religion. The Hindu religion lays down a very high standard. Judged by those standards, it will be found that most of the people who call themselves Hindus are not really Hindus. I may profess myself to be a Hindu : I may like to be governed by the Hindu law or Hindu Code ; but I cannot call myself to be a Hindu by religion. I do not follow the principles of that religion at all. How can I say that I am a Hindu by religion ? A Hindu is not expected to take meat. According to the Hindu religion, it is a forbidden thing. There may be many in this house, who may be calling themselves Hindus, but who would not be a Hindu according to those standards. Many who may call themselves Hindus may be doing un-Hindu acts. But, still, they would like to be governed by the Hindu Code. To say that this Code shall only apply to those who follow the principles of the Hindu religion would be a misnomer and is certainly opposed to all principles of honesty. I say that although I may not be a Hindu, although I may not be a follower of the Hindu religion, I profess Hinduism ; I say that I am a Hindu. So long as I say that I am a Hindu, the Hindu Law or the Hindu Code may be applicable to me. So long as I do not renounce my religion, so long as I say that I am a Hindu, because I call myself a Hindu, I shall be governed by the Hindu Law. Or as my hon. friend Mr. Jaspat Roy Kapoor contemplates, so long as a man says that he will be governed by the Hindu Code, he shall be governed by the Hindu Code ; not otherwise. Therefore, I say, how can you lay down this condition that one must be a Hindu by religion ? In our part of the country, that is in Assam, the tribal people have been held to be governed by the Hindu Law. They are not Hindus. They are not Hindus by religion. They do not follow the principles laid down in Hinduism for marriage. They do not observe the same kind of the prohibitive degree of Hindu marriage. They do not follow

897 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL the same rules of adoption. All the same they are governed by Hindu Law, because in some cases they have no other law, and in other cases they profess to be Hindus. Therefore, if it comes to a question between the phrases “professing the Hindu religion” and “Hindu by religion” I will prefer the former. And now, let me come to another aspect of the matter. There is this question of converts, and Dr. Ambedkar has himself brought forward an amendment in this respect. But I maintain that so far as Hinduism is concerned, this word “convert” is not applicable. I can understand reconversion to Hinduism, though I do not know much about it, there is no conversion to Hinduism because Hinduism is not a proselytising religion. To speak of a convert to Hinduism is absolutely meaningless. There cannot be any conversion to Hinduism. Anyone living in Hinduism is a Hindu, unless he clearly says that he is not a Hindu, that he is a Muslim, or a Parsi, or a Christian or Jew. That has been the position from time immemorial. There cannot be a convert to Hinduism. Will Dr. Ambedkar kindly tell me what are the ceremonies to be performed for a conversion to Hinduism ? Dr. Ambedkar : Prayaschitham. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Can anyone be converted into a Hindu ? Did Dr. Annie Besant convert herself to Hinduism ? Can Dr. Ambedkar give any example of a conversion to Hinduism ? Dr. Ambedkar : There are so many decided cases on the subject and if my friend will only refer to the first few pages of Mulla’s Hindu Law he would get all the information that he wants. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : If Dr. Ambedkar is referring to “Sudhi” that is a different thing. It relates to a Hindu who has left Hinduism and is again brought into the Hindu fold. But what is the procedure or the ceremony for converting any one into a Hindu ? If it is a case of conversion, I know the process. The person concerned must fast for a certain period. Mr. Deputy Speaker : Is the hon. Member trying to fix the procedure for reconversions of Hindus, in this Code ? Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : I am only saying that there can be reconversions into Hinduism, but there cannot be a conversion. Do not use the word “convert” here. Use some other word. Mr. Deputy Speaker : Courts have decided that there can be a convert to Hinduism even though he did not belong to the Hindu fold originally.

898 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : There can be re-conversion, but what about conversion ? The difference is only with respect to that. Shri Venkataraman (Madras) : The Madras High Court in the case of Ratansi Morarji- vs-the Administrator General, has decided that any person can be converted to Hinduism. Dr. Ambedkar : It related to an English woman and the question was whether a Christian could be converted into a Hindu and the answer was, yes. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Will the Hon. Minister tell me the procedure or the ceremony for such a conversion ? It is never too late to learn, after all. Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon. Member himself is very particular that Hindu traditions etc. should be preserved. Where is the harm in getting as many Hindus as possible and as many people as possible under the Hindu Law ? Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : I only want that the author of this Bill, Dr. Ambedkar and the founder of our Constitution should not indulge in words which have no meaning. The word “convert” has no meaning when applied to a Hindu. Dr. Ambedkar : That is an old anti-quated view of Mr. Chaudhuri. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Can Dr. Ambedkar please refer me to one single original text of Hindu law where it is said that conversion to Hinduism is possible ? Dr. Ambedkar : I can refer the hon. Member to the case of Morarjivs the Administrator General. The Minister of State for Transport and Railways (Shri Santhanam) : And there is a monument in Bhilsa which speaks of a Greek having been converted into a Hindu. Dr. Tek Chand (Punjab) : And many born Christians and Moslems have become Hindus. If my hon. friend wants he can bring any such persons now and they will be converted by Aryas to Hinduism and absorbed in Hindu Society. I have several books giving cases of conversions even during Moslem rule and he can have them and read them at his leisure. Dr. Ambedkar : Oh do not do that, Mr. Chaudhuri never reads. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : I am afraid the hon. Members confusing between conversion and re-conversion and also between conversion and initiation. Anyone can be initiated into Hinduism. I am not speaking about that.

899 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL Mr. Deputy Speaker : But he says there can be conversion also. Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Let us abandon that point now Sir. Mr. Deputy Speaker : I thought the hon. Member has concluded ? Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : Practically it is a conclusion for me, for I am going away to-morrow. Mr. Deputy Speaker : Will a few more minutes do ? Shri R. K. Chaudhuri : No. Sir, a few more minutes will not suffice. Mr. Deputy Speaker : Then we may adjourn. The House then adjourned till a Quarter to Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday the 7th February 1951 ll

900 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES *HINDU CODE—Contd. Mr. Speaker : The House will now proceed with the further consideration of the Bill to amend and codify certain branches of the Hindu Law, as reported by the Select Committee. Clause 2 is under discussion. Shri Gautam (Uttar Pradesh) : Before proceeding further, I would request you , Sir, to clarify one point. I understand—I was not present yesterday in the afternoon ; therefore I am raising this question—that one of the speakers used some language while discussing this clause which is objected to by some Members. Has the attention of the hon. Speaker been drawn to it ? I would request you, Sir, to issue certain instructions so far as these things are concerned so that Members may be within their bounds and may not hurt the feelings of other Members. Shri M. A. Ayyangar (Madras) : May I say, Sir, what happened ? Mr. Speaker : He need not repeat those things. Shri M. A. Ayyangar (Madras) : No; I am not going to repeat those statements at all, because that would defeat the very purpose. Yesterday, unfortunately, some remarks, I think, quite unwittingly, escaped the mouth of one of the hon. Members who was speaking. No doubt, he always speaks in good humour and nothing is taken exception to. Unfortunately, it descended to something which was not desirable. As soon as it was pointed out to me, as I was in the Chair, I directed that that portion of the statement ought to be expunged from the records. I thought the matter was over. I think all are agreed, and the hon. Member also expressed regret for having made that statement quite unwittingly, that that chapter is closed. It does not form part of the record. I do not think there is any need to bring up the matter again to you for any particular action. Mr. Speaker : I would only say that I trust that members will take sufficient note of this and so deliver their speeches and pass remarks that there many be no occasion again to repeat this kind of thing. Shri Frank Anthony (Madhya pradesh) : A bad example is set by the Treasury Benches. Mr. Speaker : Let us now proceed further with the Bill. Shri B. Das (Orissa) : Sir, I see the debate on clause 2 has descended to the level of a general debate on the whole Bill. I think today is the last date fixed by you for passing this Hindu Code………… Several Hon. Members : No, no. Mr. Speaker : Order, order. Does the hon. Member want to put any time-limit ? * P.D. Vol. VIII, Part II, 7th February 1951, pp. 2486-2537.