Vol. 14, Part II · pages 121–125

901 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL Several Hon. Members : No no. Shri B. Das : I want that on clause 2 there should be a closure………. Several Hon. Members : No no. Mr. Speaker : Order, order, hon. Members need not say yes or no. Let there be a motion for closure and if it is the general feeling that there has been sufficient discussion, I will accept closure. But, even if I accept it, the matter rests with the House ; they may acceptor reject the closure motion. As regards the character of the debate, though I do feel that we are going into very general remarks, yet, I myself do not know how the discussion could be restricted, particularly in view of the nature of clause 2. Some communities are sought to be included ; some are sought to be excluded. There are amendments on both sides. Therefore, a general survey to justify the inclusion or exclusion of the provisions becomes to some extent at least necessary. That is why I was feeling difficulty in restricting debate on that point. However, I believe there are no points or explanations to be asked. Let us proceed immediately with the consideration of the Bill. *Shri Syamnandan Sahaya (Bihar) : The debate has now gone on for full two days. If the speeches made in this House are any indication of the reception that the Code is going to have in the country, even an optimist and ardent supporter of the Code like the Hon. Dr. Ambedkar should have no difficulty in arriving at the correct conclusion. Shri B. K. P. Sinha (Bihar) : May I point out, Sir, that the supporters of the Bill have not spoken so far. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : It is no fault of the House, or even of those who do not agree with this Code if the supporters of the Bill do not like to rise and support their cause. How are we to know how many of them in their own hearts support and outwardly do not propose to do so ? Shrimati Renuka Ray (West Bengal) : Take the vote and see. Shri Raj Bahadur (Rajasthan) : If I understood correctly, Sir, you are at present calling those hon. Members who have moved amendments. Mr. Speaker : Anybody, who wishes to support or oppose the Bill is welcome to do so. Shri Syamanandan Sahaya : Sir, this bill has been, in various stages, before the country for, if I may say so, quite a long time, * P.D., Vol. VIII, Part II, 7th February 1951, pp. 2488-99.

902 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES and opinions either in favour or against the Bill have been expressed both in the Press and on public platforms and even in this House on many occasions. I have no doubt in my mind that if the opinions are scrutinised very well, they will disclose not merely an opposition to the provisions of the Code Shri Sonavane (Bombay) : On A point of order, Sir. We are now dealing with clause 2 relating to “Application of the Code”. The discussion should be on scope of clause 2 and not a general discussion. Is the hon. Member allowed to have a general discussion on the Code as such ? Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : May I, Sir, with your permission, say……. Mr. Speaker : There is no point of order. I just explained a few minutes ago that when you are discussing the “Application of the Code”, when you want to include certain communities or exclude certain communities, it becomes perfectly competent and relevant to show how the various provisions adversely affect or benefit the communities. That is why I said it is very difficult to restrict the whole discussion at this stage to specifically certain portions of the Bill. For example, I believe, yesterday, Sardar Hukam Singh, went into the question of marriages and went into the question of succession. It could not be excluded as irrelevant discussion because it is sought to enact that this Bill should apply to Sikhs also. He is perfectly entitled to show how this Bill adversely affected the Sikhs in the matter of marriages or customs or succession. That is how the points are interconnected. Therefore, it will be better if such points are not raised over and over again. Shri Sonavane: But, Sir……… Mr. Speaker : Order, order. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : As I was saying, if the opinions so far expressed—they are quite voluminous—and are in the possession of the Hon. Law Member himself—are carefully scrutinised, they would not merely disclose the opposition to the various provisions of this Code, but would also disclose an anguish, a feeling of anxiety, and a feeling of great concern, among the Hindu community over this Code. I know and I fully realise the sincerity of purpose of those who want to lead the community on a different channel. This is nothing new in history. Every reformer, perhaps, would not have been a reformer, if he had not thought that what he himself thought of religion was the right thing and that every other thing, as was said here by

903 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL the Mover, was archaic. Therefore, although I may congratulate the Hon. Law Minister for evolving a new religion which it is left to posterity to adopt or not to adopt, so far as present conditions are concerned, I must certainly warn him and Government that it would be a suicidal policy to make it an obligatory legislation. The Minister of Law (Dr. Ambedkar) : We are prepared to commit suicide. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : This reform can only be considered either as a social reform or a religious reform. If it is a social reform, I don’t see why the Hon. The Law Minister entered a caveat yesterday when some hon. Member suggested that it should be made all pervading. In that connection he urged that we ought to have consideration and regard for the sentiments and feelings of non-Hindus in this country. I am really surprised that while he advocated that for the non-Hindus, he does not seem at present to have any regard for the feelings of Hindus in this matter. Speaker after speaker in this House, coming from different parts of the country, belonging to certain different sects or certain sections of the Hindu community, have explained how they feel about the application of the provisions of this Code to them. Therefore, while this reform may, in the opinion of some, be called for, and urgently called for, yet, I do submit that it will not be fair to make it an obligatory legislation. I have, therefore, great pleasure in according my support to the amendment of Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor who suggests that it should be left open to members of the Hindu community, or for the matter of that of any other community, to accept this Code and register their will to be governed by it. If on the other hand it is held that it is some type of a religious legislation, then I think Dr. Ambedkar will concede that this is neither the appropriate time nor even proper for a secular State to attempt some kind of a religious legislation. I consider that this reform is of a social nature. And from time of which we have any record, we have known that these social reforms have to be of a permissive nature so that people may be able to adopt them with pleasure. In civilised life, even conversion by force is not permissible, and I am sure Dr. Ambedkar will not make any attempt at forcible conversion to the religion which he propagates now through this Hindu Code. When the Minister of Law started his speech yesterday—he will Pardon my saying so—I think he was a little nervous about his case, because normally he is not opt to go about hitting right and left. He has given this House the very good example of 12 Noon

904 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES very sound arguments at all time, some of them most difficult, both here and in the Constituent Assembly. But yesterday, he started his speech hitting right and left and calling those who had moved amendments and made speeches in support of them as being absurd and if I remember right, as being foolish and…… Pandit M. B. Bhargava (Ajmer) : And devoid of commonsense. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : Yes, and devoid of commonsense. Well, though I did not like it, and though it hurt me, still as one who does not agree with him in getting this Hindu Code passed as it is, I felt a little happy that the author of the Bill was so nervous that he was not stable at all. Shri J. R. Kapoor (Uttar Pradesh) : When the case is poor, abuse the adversary. Mr. Speaker : Order, order. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya : Now, it we scrutinise the provisions of the law carefully, we will find that there are really some tremendous difficulties which the mere passing of this Code is not likely to solve. [mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair.] After all, a social reform has to keep not merely, the individual but the whole society in view. And if certain provisions of this Code are given effect to, without any consideration to the particular manner in which society has been running for a long time, it will end in breaking up society as it is today. Therefore, I submit that it is necessary that this Code, if passed at all, should be permissive so that people who would like to be governed by it may do so with their eyes wide open. Let us also see, what was the original intention of those who decided to have a Hindu Code. I will refer you, Sir, and the House to an important recommendation of the Hindu Law Committee popularly called as the Rau Committee. At page 13 of their report in paragraph 50, they say : “Most of the provisions in the Code are of a permissive or enabling nature, and impose no sort of compulsion or obligation whatever on the orthodox. Their only effect is to give a growing body of Hindus, men and women, the liberty to live the lives which they wish to lead without in anyway affecting or infringing the similar liberty of those who prefer to adhere to the old ways”. This recommendation, I submit, is very clear and it was made after the Committee had toured round the whole country and ascertained the views of the Hindu community. This recommendation must have

905 DR. AMBEDKAR AND THE HINDU CODE BILL been made in all seriousness and I submit there is no reason for us now to depart from this very important decision of the Committee, whose recommendations are the basis of the Code which we are considering today. I do not know whether the mass of evidence collected by this Committee has been carefully gone into and if it is so done. I have no doubt in my mind that the Government of India will come to a similar decision with regard to the applicability of this measure. Some friends yesterday made a suggestion about taking a referendum on this very important issue. Here again we find the Hon. Law Minister wholly opposed to it and not only that but the climax was reached when he said that the electorate are ignorant and they are people who do not know anything about this matter Shri Bharati (Madras): About the technicalities of the matter. Shri Syamnandan Sahaya: You heard his speech and so did I. The records are here. It is not a question of technicality at all. Every member of the Hindu community in this country knows fully what he wants so far as his religious and social laws are concerned and there will be no difficulty, in my opinion, in taking a referendum on a question like this. When I recalled that he who was the main architect of the Constitution of India and he who was an ardent advocate of adult franchise should now speak so disparagingly about democratic methods, it was not only a surprise but a shock to me and I thought within myself whether what the Hon. Law Minister himself said yesterday about the leopard not changing spots was as true today as when it was said. We cannot forget that wherever or whenever democracy is inaugurated they do not start it with the entire electorate being as educated as one would like them to be. Let us not forget that deomcracy is its own teacher and the more you consult your electorate the more you give them the chance to express their opinion, the more conscious and the more educated you make them. I therefore submit for the consideration of the Law Minister that there cannot be a more approriate method of consulting the electorate today than a referendum on the Hindu Code. After all whether the electorate today is politically conscious to that extent or not, it certainly will have to be admitted that so far as religious sentiments and feelings and religious laws are concerned they are fully conscious and if you ask any man in the streets of a town or village, he will be able to tell you what is good for him. I therefore submit that even now there is a chance and opportunity and the Law Minister will do well to consult the electorate on a matter like this.