Vol. 15 · pages 466–470

449PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES there is any other provision, and if there is no other provision, I do not think even this Bill could be brought before this House. So this Bill is either ultra vires or it is superfluous. In case it is accepted that a provision already exists, it is not necessary to bring this Bill. From that point of view this Bill is superfluous. In case there is no provision in the Constitution, this Bill is ultra vires. Another point for which provision has been made in this Bill is declaration of certain castes as Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. For that also there is provision in articles 341 and 342. According to article 342 (2): “Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Tribes specified in a notification issued under clause (1) any tribe or tribal community or part of or group within any tribe or tribal community, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification.” My submission is that if this House has any right to make any alteration it is under clause (2) of article 342. Under that provision the scope of that modification is limited. The scope is limited to the fact that if there be any list prepared by the President under clause (1) it is only to that list that any modification can be made by an Act of Parliament. Otherwise there is no independent provision for making such modification or change in the list or to provide for the fact that certain castes should or should not be included in the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes. So, as regards that provision also, I do not think that this Bill can take us any further, because there is no such list prepared by the President to which this modification might be directed. Therefore, my submission is that in all cases either this Bill is superfluous or it is ultra vires in respect of both the points that have been attempted to be covered by this Bill. The provision already being present in article 330 of the Constitution for the representation of the Scheduled Tribes and the Scheduled Castes in this House, it is absolutely unnecessary to have this Bill or to make any law in this House. Mr. Speaker: Mr. Muldas Vaishya.

450 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES The Minister of Law (Dr. Ambedkar): I would like to make one request. I do not know whether the argument that has been advanced by Pandit Munishwar Datt Upadhyay is likely to be repeated by other members, as it was done yesterday. If that is so, with your permission, I would like to explain what exactly is the constitutional position. But I leave it to you. Otherwise I will take up the matter in my own turn when it comes. Mr. Speaker: I think that will be better. I myself have not been able to catch his objection. Dr. Ambedkar : They have missed a particular point. That is why they are raising this sort of objection. Shri Bharati (Madras): That was also raised yesterday. Mr. Speaker: Then that argument should not be repeated and the Law Minister will reply to that point at the end. Shri Sidhva (Madhya Pradesh): Let him reply now. Mr. Speaker: I shall not allow that argument on the ground of repetition . Shri Ethirajulu Naidu (Mysore): I would request you not to rule out a discussion of the Constitutional position, because there may be other aspects of it which will have to be presented. Mr. Speaker: Anything can be argued under different aspects. But the words of the Constitution are there and there is the Bill before the House, and I think that Members would trust the intelligence of the Members that they can grasp all the aspects if they are explained once or twice. What is the good of repeating them? Shri Dwivedi (Vindhya Pradesh): Although the Bill . relates to Part C States, no Member from these States has so far been allowed to speak. I would like to know if you will not allow the Members from Part C States to say something. Mr. Speaker: I do not know why hon. Members should think that they have not been allowed. Every Member is allowed. But certainly every person cannot get an opportunity. And I believe the Bill is restricted in its operations only to

451PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES certain Part C States. I think I am right when I say that. (Hon. Members: Yes, yes). The utmost that could be claimed by any. Member is that Members coming from that State to which the Bill relates should also be given an opportunity. Capt. A. P. Singh (Vindhya Pradesh) : We come from Vindhya Pradesh. Mr. Speaker: It will not be a desirable practice to urge that because the words “Part C” are there, therefore every Member coming from Part C States should be entitled to speak on it. But I need not go into that aspect. I am just keeping a watch over the thing and I shall follow what I think to be the proper and the best method. Shri Dwivedi: May I request you to allow those Members who come from Part C States and whose case is involved here? Mr. Speaker: Let them plead. But at least the Hon. Member does not come from one such. Shri Dwivedi: Sir, I come from Vindhya Pradesh. Mr. Speaker : I am so sorry. Yes, Vindhya Pradesh is there. But I want to give preference first to people who themselves belong to the Scheduled Castes, and hon. Members who do not belong to the Scheduled Castes will kindly forbear for sometime and allow those who belong to that caste to have the fullest opportunity. And I am giving an opportunity to the hon. Member Mr. Muldas because he comes from that class. I have got a list and I have got in my mind as to who come from that community and who should be given preference. Let us not argue that point any further. Shri M. B. Vaishya (Bombay): (English translation of the Hindi speech ) Sir, I deem myself to be fortunate for having been permitted by you to speak on this bill. After listening to the debate on the Bill introduced by Hon. Dr. Ambedkar, I also wish to express my ideas. He is a great scholar of law and must have introduced the present Bill as a result of the same. It was only after the coming of Mahatma Gandhi, who was our saviour, we began to realize that we also are human beings. At many places Hon. Dr. Ambedkar has stated that the Scheduled Class people were happier under the British

452 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES rule, and now under the Nehru Government they are unhappy. I received this statement as a great shock. Our country has been famous for truth. Prahlad, a boy of five, had courage enough to utter truth and nothing but truth before his father. For us Harijans Mahatma Gandhi did so much and even the present Congress Government also are doing much but this is certain that our condition has been deteriorating since so long that a greater amount of our difficulties is a result of that unhappy position. Our poverty cannot be removed so easily. A lot will have to be done for us. But when I see our leaders minimizing the efforts that are being made for us, I feel extremely pained. Obstacles should not be placed in the way of a smoothly running cart. It is not proper for us to do so. The path of service has always been acclaimed in India to be a path of Yogis and we have ever been following the same from times immemorial and we have served the society in every possible way. During the days of Swaraj Movement, I can say of at least my own province of Gujarat, if not of others, that our people had worked shoulder to shoulder with our other friends and that is why we do not like to beg anything from them like beggars. Today we demand our legitimate rights from them on the basis of equality and brotherhood. Today we have our own Government, and it is the duty of the Parliament and the Members thereof to do justice to us. In spite of all these things there are still many places in India where our bridegrooms cannot ride a horse, where Harjians cannot sit in motor buses, and there are some places even where our women folk cannot put on costly garments and ornaments. There are no doubt some such places in India even today but it does not mean that condition is the same everywhere. There is no doubt that though much is being done for us, a lot more still remains to be done. But I do not like to be ungrateful as to say that, in spite of so much being done for our uplift, nothing is being done for us and that we were happier under the British rule. There is no doubt that due to their policy of ‘divide and rule’, the Britishers had picked out some educated persons among us, treated them as their equals and tried to benefit them in every possible manner. These people can thus say that they were happier under the British

453PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES rule. But today the Harijan Community as a whole is being benefited and our representatives who occupy the seats on Treasury Benches, as Shri Sonavane has stated, by exercising their pressure upon the Government can get many things done for us. But putting the Government in disrepute and working against the Government would not, except bringing ruin to us, in any way prove beneficial to us. Dr. Ambedkar is a great scholar. I pray God to give him wisdom so that he may not utter such words as may prove our community to be ungrateful. He has played so many stunts in his life that I suppose this also to be one of them. Who knows this may also be an act of trickery as Bhagwan Shree Krishna used to show! God save us from these lilas of trickeries. We cannot turn ungrateful towards the country in which we have taken birth and whom we have served to the best of our ability. There was a time when we were asked to change our religion. But thousands and lacs of us showed to the world that even at the cost of our own heads we will not go against the land, where we have been born and give up the religion which we have adopted. We can sacrifice our lives but we cannot give up our dharma. In the end I have only to say...... Mr. Speaker: Order, order. I can appreciate the hon. Member’s keenness to speak out his heart, but then, I am afraid, we are trying to introduce, on the floor of the House, some other subject which will be discussed better outside. At present, we are concerned with this Bill. A few preliminary remarks is something different, just to impress upon the House, if at all any such thing is necessary, the fact that the Scheduled Castes should be given special consideration. But beyond that, let us not enter into any political or other controversies which may or may not have been started outside the House; let them be carried on outside the House. I earnestly request every Member in the House not to go beyond the strict scope of the Bill. I did not want to interfere with the hon. Member’s speech, nor do I want to put his enthusiasm and his feelings at a lesser value. He will confine himself now to the merits of the case. I was just watching when he was really coming to the merits of the case.