Vol. 2 · pages 476–480

457SAFEGUARDS FOR DEPRESSED CLASSES (b) This Conference requests the Government to appoint in each district a special Police Inspector from amongst the depressed classes for the protection of these classes and to admit recruits from these classes in the police service. (c) This Conference requests the Government immediately to quarter punitive police under the command of military pensioners belonging to the depressed classes, at the villages of Vadval, Matven, Tulsi, Degaon, Mandangad, Satara etc. at the expense of the so-called high caste Hindus residing in these villages in view of the fact that owing to harassment and social boycott and open assaults it has become impossible for the depressed classes to live in these villages. 3. This Conference is emphatically of the opinion that no further instalment of self-government be given to India except with proper safeguard for the interests of the depressed classes. Item No. 12 (From the Bombay Chronicle dated 20-10-27) MUNICIPAL SCHOOLS [IN THE CITY OF BOMBAY] The Schools Committee has made itself ridiculous by taking fright at the little question of drinking “lotas” (pots). It seems that, in spite of the Corporation’s resolution that there should be no caste discrimination in the Municipal Schools, “depressed” class children are given separate pots for drinking water. A sub-committee of the Schools Committee recommended that all children should be given the same pots. But the members of the Schools Committee gravely cogitated over this recommendation and entertained all sorts of fears. Some said that the change would be resented by the caste Hindus ; evidently, the resentment of the “low” caste Hindus does not count for much. Prof. V. G. Rao said that it was a revolutionary change and Mr. D. G. Dalvi, himself a well-known social reformer, added to these fears a legal one, that some parents might file a suit against the Committee. Ultimately the Schools Committee referred the question back to the subcommittee, which was tantamount to saying that the latter’s recommendation was not acceptable to them. A CALCULATED INSULT The fears mentioned above are absurd, as every boy is expected to wash a pot well before using it, on sanitary and—if he is so minded—on caste grounds. That a pot once used by an “untouchable” boy becomes itself untouchable or unusable by the “high” caste Hindus in spite of its being washed clean, is a calculated insult to the unfortunate “depressed” classes, which we certainly did not expect the Schools Committee to countenance. Mr. Dalvi stated that in view of compulsory education in some Wards parents might file a suit against the Committee “for enforcing an obligation which was by no means a legal one”. But nobody is under an obligation to

458 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES use the common pots in the schools. Those parents who are so over scrupulous may give their own pots to their children and thereby protect their “religion”. As for the “depressed” classes the insult to them remains, whether they bring their own pots or betake themselves to other schools where better notions of justice prevail.

D EVIDENCE OF Dr. AMBEDKAR BEFORE THE INDIAN STATUTORY COMMISSION ON 23rd OCTOBER 1928 INDIAN STATUTORY COMMISSION, POONA* Dated 23rd October 1928 PRESENT ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION, OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE (EXCEPT RAJA NAWAB ALI KHAN) AND OF THE BOMBAY PROVINCIAL COMMITTEE Dr. B. R. Ambedkar (a member of the Bombay Committee) and Dr. P. G. Solanki (representing the Depressed Classes), called and examined. Chairman : Just to remind my colleagues, the documents we should have before us are : Dr. Ambedkar’s Statement on behalf of the Depressed Classes’ Institute of Bombay and the Joint Memorandum of the Depressed Indian Association, Bombay, and the Servants of Somavamshi Society. Dr. Ambedkar has changed his seat, because he is acting for the moment as one of our witnesses. Dr. Ambedkar, of course, we know as a member of the Bombay Committee. I think, Dr. Solanki, you or your Association is responsible for the other document ? Dr. Solanki : I concur in the document submitted by Dr. Ambedkar. 2. I should like you to begin, Dr. Ambedkar, by helping us as to the sort of number of depressed classes in this Presidency. Can you help us about that? Dr. Ambedkar : I find that the depressed class population, as computed in the Memorandum submitted by the Government of Bombay is estimated at 1,478,390 as may be seen from page 3 of their Memorandum (Vol. VII). 3. Let us see. They say, “The depressed classes, which include mostly the Dheds, Mangs, Mahars and Holiyas, number, according to the Census *Indian Satutory Commission, Vol. XVI. Selections from Memoranda and Oral Evidence, Part I, published by His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, 1930, p. 52-75. This Commission is popularly known after its Chairman Sir John Simon.

460 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES of 1921, 1,478,390 approximately.” What do you say about that figure? Dr. Ambedkar : As you will see. the figure I have given on page 39 of my Memorandum is about 28 lakhs. 4. You think the number should be about 2,800,000 ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 5. How does the discrepancy arise ? Dr. Ambedkar : The first thing I should like to say is this, that the figures given by the Government of Bombay are taken, I believe, from the Census of India, 1921, Vol. 8, Bombay Presidency, Part II, the tables starting on page 176, while the figures which I give in my memorandum are from Chapter 11 of Vol. 1 of the Census of India, 1921. These are the figures estimated by the Director of Census, who has collected the figures of the different Provinces, and his computations, which I have taken bodily, are given on page 39 of my memorandum under the heading “Population of the Depressed Classes in India”, and show the figures for the different Provinces, giving the population of the depressed classes in each. Now, as we see, there is this discrepancy between the two sets of figures. These figures of course, can never be exact, neither the Provincial nor the Central figures. In fact, if the Conference will refer to the remarks of the Director of the Census of India, which I commence quoting on page 39 of my memorandum, it will be seen that, after giving the total estimated population of the depressed classes he goes on to say (page 39 of memorandum, in italics)*, “This, however, must be taken as a low and conservative estimate since it does not include (1) the full strength of the castes and tribes concerned, and (2) the tribal aborigines most recently absorbed in Hinduism, many of whom are considered impure. We may confidently place the numbers of the depressed classes, all of whom are considered impure, at something between 55 and 60 millions in India proper.” Then he gives the figures for each province. 6. Would you mind if I just try to clear my own mind, not by reference to precise figures, but by contrasting two conceptions ? It is manifest that if some authorities, speaking with the precision of Census returns, give a total like 1,478,000, and other authorities, also speaking with precision, give a figure like 2,800,000, the second authorities must be including people not included by the first ? Dr. Ambedkar : That is so, and I should, therefore, like to point out to the Conference that the provincial figures do not include certain castes which are, as a matter of fact, untouchable castes. 7. May we put it like this ? See if I have it correct, and if I have not please tell me. I have been studying it as well as I can, although I have been looking forward to your help and that of Dr. Solanki. In one sense of the term, by “Depressed Classes” you might mean untouchables in the sense of persons who are Hindus, but who are denied access to the Hindu temples, *See para. 7, Quotation paragraph 193 at pages 436-37 of this book.

461EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION might you not ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 8. In another sense you might include in the “Depressed Classes” not only those people whom I have described, but also the criminal tribes, the hill tribes and other people who no doubt are very low in the scale, but who are not, perhaps, in the narrower sense untouchables from the point of view of the Hindus hierarchy ? Dr. Ambedkar: Quite. 9. Is not that a possible view ? Dr. Ambedkar : That is a possible view. 10. Is not that the real explanation of why in some connections you get a certain figure for the depressed classes, meaning untouchables, persons who are refused admission to the Hindu temples, whereas on the other hand you sometimes get a bigger figure which would include these criminal and hill tribes ? Dr. Ambedkar : I do not think that is so in this case, because the figures I have given seem to have reference to the depressed classes as distinct from the hill tribes and the criminal tribes. 11. Let me point this out to you. I have before me these three figures. I have got a figure of 1,478,000 odd for untouchables taken from the Census of 1921, and made up of these Mahars, Dheds and other people. Then I have a long list of criminal tribes and so on, which adds up to 589,000—just over half a million. Then I have a third list of aboriginals and hill tribes—Bhils, and people of that sort—and they add up to another million. If you were to add the aboriginal and criminal tribes in with the first figure, you would get a total approximately like the larger figure you give of 2,800,000 ? Dr. Ambedkar : The quotation I reproduce on page 39 of my memorandum from the remarks of the Directors of the Census gives me the impression that his figures are strictly for the depressed classes. My feeling is that the figures computed by the Director of the Census and referred to by him in the paragraph which I quote on page 39 of my memorandum are figures which apply only to the depressed classes. 12. ………. I see that the Director of the Census of India for 1921 says this : “It has been usual in recent years to speak of a certain section of the community as the ‘Depressed Classes’—so far as I am aware the term has no final definition, nor is it certain exactly whom it covers.” Then he refers to some educational criticisms. That is the passage you mean ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, and “The total population classed according to these lists as depressed amounted to 31 million persons or 19 per cent. of the Hindu and tribal population of British India.” That remark would appear to exclude the tribal people from the depressed classes. 13. I do not know. Anyhow, that is one possible explanation, and I think you agree a possible explanation is that the smaller figure is the figure of untouchables in the sense I have tried to define. I think you agree