Vol. 2 · pages 481–485

462 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES that is a possible view. It is manifest that for many purposes those interested in trying to promote the advancement and elevation of those who are most depressed may very well include in their survey a wider number of persons, including the criminal and hill tribes. That is a possibility ? Dr. Ambedkar : It is a possibility. 14. I should like to suggest to you another possible view. I do not know if it qualifies it. On page 39 of your document you point out, quite accurately, I think, that if you add the provincial figures together you get something like 55 to 60 millions in India proper ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 15. “India proper” there, I think, would include the Indian States? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, I thought of that, but I would point out one thing. He seems to exclude the Indian States, because he gives a separate figure for Baroda. 16. Perhaps he mentions one or two of the larger ones ? Dr. Ambedkar : Probably. Qualification of the figures. 17. We do not, of course, want to spend too long on the statistical point, because, after all, whether the right figure to take is 1½ million or 2 millions or 2½ millions, it is obvious, it is a very large number of people, and they are people who deserve our very special consideration ? Dr. Ambedkar : One point I wish to mention is this, that the figures from which the provincial figures are computed are in the table which deals only with the principal Indian castes. It is not an exhaustive table, and I find by going over the different castes which are mentioned in this table that it does not give any figures whatsoever for ten castes, which are undoubtedly castes. They are not included in the principal Indian castes. 18. What I was going to suggest, if it was agreeable to you both, was this. You have called attention to the main considerations with regard to the figures and, without fixing absolutely the right figures, I think it would be well to get rid of this figures point as quickly as possible and then we can get to the question of considering the position and treatment of these classes ; otherwise we may occupy a long time on arithmetic. I have asked what I want to put about it, and I am quite prepared to take it that if you apply a narrower test you may get a figure of 1½ millions, but that with a wider test you will get a figure of between 2 and 3 millions. I accept that from you, as I follow it ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, with this qualification, that the Bombay figures do not include ten of the castes. Chairman : We want to get to the real point, which is their representation. Is there anyone who wants to occupy time on this statistical point ? Are you content, Mr. Rajah, that we should take it the figures are something of that sort ? Rao Bahadur Rajah : Which figures ? Chairman : Do not you think we might proceed with the really important question, which is their representation, leaving it like this, that in the Bombay

463EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION Presidency the Census of 1921 gives a figure of 1½ millions, but it would appear that those are the depressed classes in the narrower sense I have mentioned, the untouchables from the point of view of religion, but that, as Dr. Ambedkar has pointed out, the official figures really show, if you take a rather wider but perfectly legitimate view, that the true figure may be between 2 and 3 millions. Is not that fair ? Rao Bahadur Rajah: Yes, that is right. Chairman : Does anybody want to add anything about that ? 19. Colonel Lane Fox : On which figure are the two memoranda which we have received based ? In each memorandum you ask for special representation for the depressed classes. You ask for adult suffrage in one memorandum, and you ask for special recruitment for the army and navy and so on. It is obvious it is a bigger thing if you ask for it for the aborigines and criminal tribes and so on. Are these privileges asked for the bigger figure or for the smaller ? Dr. Ambedkar : I ask for them for the depressed classes. 20. For the aborigines and criminal classes also ? Dr. Ambedkar : No. I do not think it would be possible to allow them the privilege of adult suffrage. 21. But you quote the bigger figure ? Dr. Ambedkar : I am not accepting altogether the fact that the figure which I have given in my memorandum covers the aborigines and the hill tribes. I still hold to the view that on a fair computation the figure I have given is largely the figure for the depressed classes I admit only the possibility of the other view. Chairman : There is only one thing I might add. Sir Arthur Froom may be able to confirm it. I notice the Muddiman Committee (Reforms Enquiry Committee, 1925) in the table subjoined to para. 64 of their Report, give the figure at 2,800,000. 22. Sir Hari Singh Gour : Dr. Ambedkar, would you regard “depressed classes” and “untouchables” as synonymous terms ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 23. In asking for special representation for the depressed classes you confine yourselves to the untouchables ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 24. You say that some aborigines are not untouchables’? Dr. Ambedkar : In some parts they may be. I do not propose to speak on their behalf. 25. They are not untouchables. The criminal tribes are not untouchables ? Dr. Ambedkar : Some of them are. 26. Some, but as a tribe they are not ? Dr. Ambedkar : The criminal tribes have so little social intercourse with the rest of the Hindus that there is no basis for any definite opinion on that point, but if they did have such intercourse I think they would be regarded as untouchables.

464 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 27. There are certain classes which stand midway between touchability and untouchability ? Dr. Ambedkar : I would rather say they were lower down than the untouchables. 28. No, higher up in the social ladder there is a class which is semiuntouchable ? Dr. Ambedkar : I cannot say. My point is this, that with respect to the criminal tribes we have no data for forming an opinion as to whether they are untouchable or not, because there is very little intercourse between the main body of Hindus and the criminal tribes. 29. Leave out of account the criminal tribes and aborigines ; I am now dealing with the untouchables. Among the untouchables themselves there are degrees ; there are certain among them who may be regarded as only semiuntouchable ? Dr. Ambedkar : (Both witnesses) No. 30. I will give you an example. What is the position of the Chambhar ? Dr. Ambedkar : He is entirely untouchable. 31. As much as the Mahar ? Dr. Ambedkar ; Yes. 32. Are you certain of that ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, if you apply this test of common water, or of entering a temple. 33. No, by untouchability I mean whose touch will pollute a high caste Hindu ? Dr. Ambedkar: Well, you can take entering a temple or taking water as a test. Chairman: After all, we are engaged here primarily in a constitutional and political inquiry. Social customs and deep-rooted religious traditions are not things which are likely to be removed between night and morning by any commission; that is obvious enough. It really comes to this, that in one sense the depressed classes meaning the untouchables, will be those classes who are denied all access to Hindu temples, and who, it is suggested, are deprived very often of the use of schools, of dharmashalas and things of that sort. In addition to those, speaking politically and constitutionally, we shall all agree there are others, not very advanced in the scale of civilisation, such as Sir Hari Singh Gour has referred to—criminal tribes, hill tribes and so on—who are also inhabitants of India and as such demand our attention. Sir Hari Singh Gour: The Hindus are divided into four castes. The Sudras cannot get into the temples . ………. Chairman: I think we all appreciate that. However, we are not engaged in making laws for the Hindu religion, but in considering the structure of the constitution of British India, which is a very different thing. 34. Taking that figure, what is it that you want to represent as the proper way in which the constitution of India, and more particularly the

465EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION constitution of the Bombay Presidency, should deal with these people ? Dr. Ambedkar : The first thing I would like to submit is that we claim that we must be treated as a distinct minority, separate from the Hindu community. Our minority character has been hitherto concealed by our inclusion in the Hindu community, but as a matter of fact there is really no link between the depressed classes and the Hindu community. The first point, therefore, I would stress before the Conference is that we must be regarded as a distinct and independent minority. Secondly, I should like to submit that the depressed classes minority needs far greater political protection than any other minority in British India, for the simple reason that it is educationally very backward, that it is economically poor, socially enslaved, and suffers from certain grave political disabilities, from which no other community suffers. Then I would submit that, as a matter of demand for our political protection, we claim representation on the same basis as the Mahomedan minority. We claim reserved seats if accompanied by adult franchise. 35. And if there is no adult franchise ? Dr. Ambedkar : Then we would ask for separate electorates. Further, we would like to have certain safeguards either in the constitution, if it is possible, or else in the way of advice in the instrument to the Governor regarding the education of the depressed classes and their entry into the public services. 36. May we just ask Dr. Solanki if he agrees in those points ? Dr. Solanki: I agree with all the points. 37. Then we may take it that that is the view of both you gentlemen ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 38. Would it be convenient if I asked a question of two on these points as we go ? You claim that the depressed class, although included within Hinduism in a sense, should none the less be regarded from the point of view of the constitution as a distinct and separate community from others who are within Hinduism ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 39. Is that on the ground that in your view the depressed classes cannot expect to have their interests satisfactorily represented by the higher ranks of Hinduism ? Dr. Ambedkar: That is one ground, but a matter of fact, really we cannot be deemed to be part of the Hindu community. 40. You come, I believe from an earlier set of inhabitants of this continent ? Dr. Ambedkar : That is one view, I think. 41. It is supposed — we will not go into details — that you are pre-Aryan ? Dr. Ambedkar : Well, I do not know. That is a view. *****

466 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 43. I only ask you the question because there are some very distinguished Hindu public men — I do not mention any names — who have undoubtedly exhibited a good deal of interest in the case of the depressed classes. There is no question about that ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, there is a great deal of public talk. 44. I know ; but, at any rate, that is your view : You say you must be regarded as a distinct and separate community from the constitutional point of view ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 45. As regards representation, I notice that whether there is adult franchise, or whether there is not adult franchise, you seem to be abandoning any idea of nomination, you want election ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 46. Is that the view of both of you ? Dr. Solanki : Yes. 47. That means, of course, that you have to make a list of voters ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 48. And you have to make sure that the man who comes to vote is the man on the list, and nobody else ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 49. Could you give me an estimate at all, Dr. Ambedkar, of what percentage of the population whom you call the depressed classes can read ? Dr. Ambedkar : In a separate memorandum which I have submitted to the Commission on education in the Bombay Presidency I gave the figures. 50. I am afraid it is a very small proportion ? Dr. Ambedkar : Quite. 51. After all, one of the complaints that are made is that they have not had as free access to schools as more fortunate people ? Dr. Ambedkar : Quite so. 52. So it would mean, would it not, if it was done by election, that it would almost entirely have to be done by people voting who could not themselves understand the ballot paper ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. That is true of the majority of voters even today. 53. True. Now, would you tell me how many reserved seats in the Bombay Presidency you would suggest classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: In the scheme that I have prepared I say out of 140 we claim 22 seats. 54. What you suggest is that if the total number of members of the Bombay Council, all elected, was 140, then you think that the body for which you wish to speak should have 22 elective seats ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 55. And supposing, to take your other alternative, there is no adult franchise, then you are asking for separate electorates. Do you still want 22 seats ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes.