Vol. 2 · pages 486–490

467EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION 56. The only other thing I will ask you is this. I think Mr. Rajah probably will be glad to put a few questions himself to bring out the social condition. At present I think, in the Bombay Legislative Council there are two members, are there not, who are nominated to represent the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar : That is so. 57. You yourself being one of them ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 58. And Dr. Solanki being the other ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 59. Was that based on the Southborough Committee’s Report ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, I believe so. 60. I believe you gave evidence before the Southborough Committee ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 61. I have been reading your evidence before that Committee, and I was looking to see how many members you said there were of the depressed classes. I think you point out in your memorandum, in a note at the bottom of page 39, that the figure of the depressed classes given by the Southborough Committee for the Bombay Presidency was 5,77,000 ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 62. I think your view is that, that was an error ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, a very large error. 63. Can you tell me, as a matter of fact, how they arrived at it ? Do you know at all ? Dr. Ambedkar : They simply took, I think, a small table with regard to castes which cause pollution. 64. It was taking a still narrower definition of what constituted the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 65. Mr. Hartshorn: I notice in this note you say, after referring to the figure of the Southborough Committee of 5,77,000. “According to the authority relied upon by the Southborough Committee, the population of the depressed classes in the Bombay Presidency in 1911 was 2,145,000”. Dr. Ambedkar : In the Census. 66. That is the authority they relied upon ? That was what I wanted to know. Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. The authority gave two different figures on two different pages, if I remember correctly. On one page they gave the smaller figure, and they took that up, and as soon as the Report of the Southborough Committee was published we protested against this estimate to the Government of Bombay. 67. Chairman: I think it is quite clear what the 2,100,000 was. It was the result of adding together in the Census of 1921 the figure given for the untouchables, which as I have said, was 1,478,000, and the figure given

468 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES for the criminal tribes, which was something like 623,000. Adding those two together, you would get the 2,100,000 ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 68. And it was leaving out the aboriginal and hill tribes. It must have been ? Dr. Ambedkar ; Yes. 69. Mr. Miller : I should like to ask about the position in some of the Indian States. In Baroda and one other State, I think, where some special facilities are shown, are those special facilities anything beyond education facilities ? Dr. Ambedkar : No, nothing beyond that. 70. Could you obtain service with the State ? Dr. Ambedkar : I should think it would be very difficult. 71. You are particularly anxious to get appointments in the public service ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, decidedly. 72. Why is that so ? Dr. Ambedkar : On that point I should like to say this, that our experience so far as the administration of the law is concerned is very bitter. I wish to say most emphatically that in many cases the law is administered to the disadvantage of the depressed class man. I would like to give a concrete case of what actually happened in one of the districts, without, of course, mentioning names. The Bombay Government annually lets out its forest lands for cultivation to the villages on certain stated terms. Now we discovered that in the allotment of those forest lands the depressed class man, who was often a landless labourer or with very little land, and who was clamouring for some sort of economic stability, never came in for a share. The Mamlatdars, who were really in charge of distributing the lands, showed absolute favouritism to the caste Hindu as against the depressed class man. Last year in one district we organised and sent a deputation to the Assistant Deputy Collector of that district, placing before him our grievances with respect to these forest lands. He issued a circular to the Mamlatdars saying that the applications from the depressed classes should be considered. Now, some of the Mamlatdars, to show they were acting up to the circular, did give some lands to the depressed classes. But we found that they rather fooled us, if I may say so. What they did was, on paper they allotted a very large amount of land to the depressed classes and a very small amount of land to the caste Hindus, but when we came to see actually what was allotted to us we found that the land allotted to the depressed classes was all rocky and unfit for cultivation and the depressed class people would not take it for anything, and the land allotted to the caste Hindus though small, was all rich and fertile. Now I think that is a most fragrant abuse of the administrative power which is entrusted to the officials, and I personally attach far more importance to good administration of law than to more efficient administration of law.

469EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION 73. Chairman: I imagine that the application of what you have told us, which is interesting, to our present inquiry is really this — because, of course, it is no part of the function of this Commission to interfere in day-by-day administration ? Dr. Ambedkar : No. 74. You are using it as an argument to support your view that the depressed classes should have a full representation ? Dr. Ambedkar : In the services. 75. That is your point ? Dr. Ambedkar: That is my point. I will give some instances of what happens in judicial courts actually in this Presidency. I happened to defend a depressed class man in one of the courts, and, to my great surprise, I found that the man had to stand outside the court behind a little window, outside the wall, and he would not come in simply because, he said, “It is all right so far as you are concerned, but after you have left there will be terrible social ostracism if I enter the court” 76. It was the client who did not want to come in ? Dr. Ambedkar : Who dare not come in. 77. What sort of social ostracism had he in mind ? Dr. Ambedkar : The social ostracism would be that if he went back to the village there would be the boycott of the shop-keepers; nobody would sell him grain. The villagers would stop his dues as a village servant. He would not be allowed to come into the village. The depressed class people always live on the border of the village, not in the centre or in the midst 78. Your point would be that he was timid about coming into court on this occasion because he thought that afterwards the other people of the village, not his own lot but the others, the caste people, would regard him as having pushed himself in where he should not go ? Dr. Ambedkar : Certainly—having exceeded the bounds of his social status. 79. That is a single case, is it ? Dr. Ambedkar : I have had that experience but I think that the existence of a circular of the Bombay High Court to the effect that the depressed classes must be allowed entry in the courts indicates that that is often the case. There must be some reason for that circular. 80. Mr. Miller: The only other question, I want to ask is this. If you got these 22 seats in the Council do you think you could bring forward 22 suitable men ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, I think so. 81. Khan Sahib Abdul Latif : Would you please enlighten the members of the Conference as to the fate of the minorities in the Bombay Council, when the official bloc is withdrawn for certain reasons ? Dr. Ambedkar : I quite see that the fate of the minorities would be precarious. It has been precarious. 82. Did the honou rable Minister belonging to the advanced class show

470 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES any consideration to the project, or the feelings of Mahomedans, non-Brahmins, or depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar : No, not at all. 83. Do the minor communities stand any chance of getting through any legislation in the Bombay Legislative Council, or get any chance to move it? Dr. Ambedkar : Their chances would be almost nil. ***** 98. Sardar Mujumdar: Is it not a fact that different kinds of castes among the depressed classes are known as the depressed classes ; that is to say, there are different kinds of castes even among the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, of course. 99. Can you give me approximately the number of those castes ? Dr. Ambedkar : I think you will find them in the Census, the different castes enumerated as untouchables. 100. Can you give me any idea of the number of different castes ? Dr. Ambedkar: About a dozen or so. The Census gives it. 101. How many castes are included in the depressed classes in Bombay ? Dr. Ambedkar : Almost all the castes. 102. Then the members of the different castes are members of your organisation ? Dr. Ambedkar : Quite ; it is a general body inclusive of all the depressed classes. 103. So that among the depressed classes are included ail those ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 104. Have you taken into consideration the claims of the Bhils and Wadias and other persons ? Dr. Ambedkar : No. 105. What do you say about the protection of those minorities ? Dr. Ambedkar : I think that they also should be allowed some protection by representation. 106. Do you not think that even among the backward classes there are certain communities, who are in a minority ? Dr. Ambedkar : Yes. 106A. Then has the present constitution any provision to protect their interest ? Chairman: Are these castes to which you refer refused admission to the Hindu temples ? Sardar Mujumdar: No, they are allowed to go into them. Chairman: This morning we are really considering the case of untouchables, and persons who are quite outside the Hindu temple scheme. I do not think we can go into the question of the backward classes, who would be admitted to the Hindu temples. Sardar Mujumdar: What I submit is that there are various minorities

471EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION even amongst the backward classes. We are not concerned with the question of suitability; we are here to safeguard the interests of all the minorities. Chairman: Certainly. Sardar Mujumdar: It was from that point of view that I asked the question. Chairman: Let me relieve you at once. India is full of minorities, and you have mentioned some of them; but this morning we are considering the body of people called the depressed classes. Sardar Mujumdar: Very well, Sir. 107. Syed Miran Muhammad Shah: You have just said that you want representation in proportion to what the Mahomedans get ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 108. Do you want them because Mahomedans get them ? Do you see any justice in that ? Dr. Ambedkar: I see justice in that, I do not quite accept the principle of representation of minorities according to population of the legislature as though it was a museum in which we have only to keep so many specimens of so many communities. A Legislative Council is more than a museum, it is a place where, for instance, social battles have to be fought, privileges have to be destroyed, and rights have to be won. Now, if that is the conception of a Legislative Council, I do not think it at all in the fitness of things to confine the minority to proportional representation according to population, that means you are condemning a minority to be perpetually a minority without the power necessary to influence the actions in the majority. 109. Would you be satisfied if the franchise was reduced to local boards in the rural areas ? Dr. Ambedkar: Well, I would really insist upon adult suffrage. The lower the franchise the better, on that principle I would accept any lowering, out I certainly would not say I would be content with that. 110. Would you then extend adult suffrage to the aboriginal tribes and to the criminal and hill tribes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, I think so. 111. You would? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 112. Or would you like to exclude them and give them nomination and yourselves adult suffrage ? Dr. Ambedkar: I will say one thing. With regard to the criminal tribes, it might not be a good thing to give them adult suffrage, because by occupation they are a people who have more the interest of their own particular community in their mind, and they are not very particular as regards the means whereby they earn their living; but I do not think there is any harm in giving aborigines the right to vote. 113. They should be given the right to vote, or should their interests be