Vol. 2 · pages 491–495

472 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES protected by nomination ? Dr. Ambedkar: They should be protected somehow ; I do not much mind how. My feeling is that every man is intelligent enough to understand exactly what he wants. Literacy has not much bearing on this point; a man may be illiterate, none the less he may be very intelligent 114. Do not you think that this separate representation will lead to communal tension ? It is stated that communal tension is due to separate representation and separate electorates. Is that your belief ? Dr. Ambedkar: Even assuming it does lead to tension I do not see how you can get rid of it. Whether it does lead to tension is questionable, but I do not see in any case how you can get rid of it, having regard to the fact that society is divided into classes and communities. 115. Do not you think it is the root cause of dissension ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not think so, but I do say this; as a result of communal representation, the leaders of the communities are less prone to compromise than they would otherwise be. That is my feeling, but I do not think it leads to communal riots, which are due, I think, to something very different 116. Syed Miran Muhammad Shah: Would you not suggest that by taking away the official bloc, non-officials may be nominated in order ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not want nomination. 117. Major Attlee: Are there members of the depressed classes working in industry, in the cotton mills and so on ? Dr. Ambedkar: All of them. The depressed class men are all labourers. 118. You have not got my point; I am talking of industry. You have members of the depressed classes who work in villages, for the most part in certain occupations. But are there large numbers of the depressed classes engaged in industry ? Dr. Ambedkar: A very large number. 119.You would have a very large number in a place like Bombay City? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 120. Do they cease in any degree to be untouchable ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, I should like to point out this. The depressed class man is entirely kept out of the weaving department, the most paying department. He can only enter departments like the throstle department and others. 121. Why? Dr. Ambedkar: On account of untouchability. 122. When he is working there he is working alongside people of all castes? Dr. Ambedkar: Not quite. The departments are discriminated according to castes. One department is entirely manned by the depressed classes;

473EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION another—say the weaving department—by Mahomedans and caste Hindus. 123. Do they take part in the trade unions ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, they are beginning to do so. 124. With members of the classes above the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 125. I wanted to get this point from you. You put forward a claim for representation of the depressed classes on the basis of numbers. Now, we have claims put forward on a different basis altogether; on, say, the labour basis. You get a cross-division in that way, because a man can be a depressed class man and he can also be a labourer ? Dr. Ambedkar: He is usually, if not always, a labourer. 126. That is rather a play on words, is not it ? I am speaking of capital and labour, of labour in big- industries, not of the ordinary un-organised labour. I am speaking of organised labour. How are you going to get over the difficulty ? If you are going to have representation by social status in one case and by industry in another, you are going to get a cross-division. How will you get over that ? Dr. Ambedkar: There will be some provision for organised labour, and the majority of the depressed classes are labourers. 127. Mr. Hartshorn: I think, Dr. Ambedkar, you have made it pretty clear that you are in favour of adult suffrage. You say on page 41 of your memorandum, however, “The Sabha would, however, be content if the franchise for the Legislative Council is fixed at the same level as that for the Taluka Local Board in the rural parts and Rs. 3 rental per month in the urban parts of the Presidency.” Have you formed any opinion, or are any statistics available to enable us to know to what extent the franchise would be extended on that qualification ? Dr. Ambedkar: I may tell you that I am myself shaky about that statement. I do not mind admitting that. Such information as I have been able to gather from the depressed classes in the mofussils, however, leads me to believe that the existing taluka local franchise does produce a certain number of voters from the depressed classes. 128. I was not quite thinking of that. Could you tell us the increase in the number of persons who would become voters in the Bombay Presidency if this qualification rather than the present one were adopted ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not think I can give you any very definite information on this point. 129. May I revert to a question put to you by Major Attlee ? I gather the depressed classes work in the factories in isolation ? Dr. Ambedkar: In isolation, yes. 130. They have their own shed and their own department ? Dr. Ambedkar: Their own department; there are no sheds. 131. Whatever it is, they are separated from the other workers in the factory ? Dr. Ambedkar: I would rather put it in this way, that certain

474 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES departments are exclusively assigned to the depressed classes and certain departments are departments into which they are not allowed to enter. 132. Certain kinds of occupations are forbidden to them ? Dr. Ambedkar: In the mills, yes. 133. I think you said they are not allowed to go into the weaving department ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 134. If they became members of the same trade union, would the workers in the weaving department decline to allow them in ? Dr. Ambedkar: They would decline to allow them in. If I may mention one thing, in the recent Bombay strike this matter was brought up prominently by me. I said to the members of the union that if they did not recognise the right of the depressed classes to work all the departments, I would rather dissuade the depressed classes from taking part in the strike. They afterwards consented, most reluctantly, to include this as one of their demands, and when they presented this to the millowners, the millowners very rightly snubbed them and said that if this was an injustice, they certainly were not responsible for it. 135. It is not altogether merely a case of the employers wanting to get cheap labour and confining certain departments to the depressed classes for economic reasons ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, it is untouchability. 136. Would there be anything of this in the situation ? The better-paid Indian, say, declines to allow the untouchable to come into his department for fear that the effect of their lower wages would be to depress wages in his department ? Dr. Ambedkar : No. There is no distinction on the basis of wages. 137. That does not come into it at all ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, not at all. 138. It is merely a question of untouchability ? Dr. Ambedkar: Quite so. 139. Mr. Cadogan: They can be members of the trade union ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 140. Mr. Premchand: Can you give me a strict definition of the classes who will be on a special register of the electorate as the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Castes which cause pollution. 141. Is the principle that the lower the standing of a community the greater the electoral advantage it should command over others, justifiable ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 142. If all minorities are granted additional seats, what then will constitute the majority ? Dr. Ambedkar: If minorities put together make up a majority there is no majority and the question does not arise. There may be class distinctions among the minorities. I can quite conceive the Mahomedans in the Bombay Presidency being divided into two groups, one favouring the capitalists and

475EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION one the labourers. 143. Is not it true that people who are not politically minded or trained are frequently led astray by professional leaders ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know. I have never been a professional leader, so I cannot say. 144. Would not the extension of the franchise to the large majority of the uneducated section of society be fraught with danger and render it liable to abuse ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, I do not think so. 145. Can you tell me why it is not possible to admit members of the depressed classes to our present schools and colleges without the necessity for a charge on the revenue of the Province ? Dr. Ambedkar: Because they are hopelessly neglected under the present system. 146. Why is not. it possible to admit members of the depressed classes to our present schools and colleges without the necessity for a charge on the revenues of the Province ? Dr. Ambedkar: You should ask those who refuse what their reason for resfusal is. 147. Refusal of what ? Dr. Ambedkar: To admit them. 148. To the colleges and schools ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 149. Do you know the Bombay Municipality has passed a rule now ? Dr. Ambedkar: And you know also of the protest meeting which was held in Bombay. 150. There may have been a protest by one section, but the Municipality has removed all those restrictions ? Dr. Ambedkar:. It remains to be seen how far they will stick to it at the next election. 151. But they have done it, you know ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 152. Chairman: Might we know what is the protest meeting to which he refers ? Dr. Ambedkar: The position is this. Hitherto the Bombay Municipality has had separate schools for the depressed classes in the City of Bombay. Now, under the scheme of compulsory primary education, the Bombay Municipality is compelled to limit the number of schools and bring together the scattered children of the depressed classes into the schools of the caste Hindus as a measure of economy. Naturally, some provision has to be made for water and other amenities for the children who attend. The question arose whether there should be a distinction in the drinking arrangements, whether the untouchables should have separate pots for drinking from the caste Hindus. The Municipality passed a resolution saying “We cannot recognise untouchability in our own schools,” and they issued a circular

476 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES that there should be no distinction as to drinking pots in their schools. This protest meeting was a meeting held under the presidency of an important Hindu leader of Bombay to protest against that kind of uniform arrangement being made, as being against the Hindu religion. 153. Mr. Premchand: Do you know the depressed classes are employed in the weaving departments of the Ahmedabad mills ? Dr. Ambedkar: I did not know that. 154. I can tell you they are. Dr. Ambedkar: There again I should like to say one thing, probably they are employed exclusively. I can quite conceive of a situation where, for instance, so many looms are exclusively handed over to the depressed classes. Today there is a proposal also in certain mills that the depressed classes should take charge of the whole of the weaving department, that the millowners should hand it over to them, but you cannot have part depressed classes and part caste Hindus. 155. Chairman: The difficulty is the mixture ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 156. Sir Hari Singh Gour: What is the view of your Institute in regard to the general scheme of constitutional reform ? Have you formulated any views at all on the subject ? Dr. Ambedkar: I may tell you this. The depressed classes as such, of course, are not very much interested in constitutional questions ; they are more interested in obtaining the guarantees and protection they require, under whatever form of Government that may come to be. Therefore, I do not think that the depressed classes as such have any definite views as to the form of Provincial Government or the form of the Central Government; but, of course, I have my own individual views as a member of the depressed classes, without these being the views of the depressed classes themselves. It is on that account that nothing is said about the constitution in my memorandum. 157. I am aware of that, and that is why I asked you that question. What are your personal views ? Dr. Ambedkar: So far as the Provincial Government is concerned, I am in favour of Provincial autonomy. 158. Qualified or unqualified ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think there might be some safeguards with regard to the transfer of law and order. It is not that I object to the transfer of law and order; I am in favour of the transfer; but still I should like some safeguard. I am not certain today what it shoud be, but there might be with advantage some safeguard in that respect Barring that, I am in favour (speaking personally) of full Provincial autonomy. 159. What about the Central Government ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think we might start with dyarchy there. 160. As regards adult suffrage, I suppose you are in favour of adult male and female suffrage ?