Vol. 2 · pages 496–500

477EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 161. Do you think that is a practical proposition ? Dr. Ambedkar: Very practical. 162. Do you think the masses have attained any degree of political consciousness, so as to be able to use that political suffrage with any advantage to their own community ? Dr. Ambedkar: Speaking only on behalf of the depressed classes. I emphatically maintain that the depressed classes will exercise their vote in a most intelligent manner, speaking for the Bombay Presidency. Having regard to the fact that the canker of untouchability is before their minds every minute of their lives, and having regard to their being alive to the fact that political power is the only solvent of this difficultly, I emphatically maintain that the depressed class voter would be an intelligent voter. 163. Do not you think that, following the example of other countries, those who pay no taxes, having a political existence and possessing political power, will tax those who are already oppressed with heavy taxes ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think that should be so. I do not see anything wrong in it. 164. You see no wrong in the exploitation of the tax paying community ? Is this your own opinion or the opinion of the Institute which you represent ? Dr. Ambedkar: My own opinion. The Institute has said nothing about it here. 165. Do you think you reflect the general opinion of your Institute in conveying this view to the Commission ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think that would be the view of all poor communities. ***** 167. Sir Hari Singh Gour: In answer to the Chairman, you said the depressed classes must be regarded as a distinct community, a community distinct from the Hindu community. Do you apply that only for electoral purposes, or for all purposes ? Dr. Ambedkar: They are distinct for all purposes, as a matter of fact 168. Would you class the depressed classes as real Hindus ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not care about the nomenclature. It does not matter whether I call myself a Hindu or a non-Hindu, as long as I am outside the pale of the Hindu community. ***** 170. It makes all the difference in the world. If you were ……………. outside the pale of Hinduism you would not be subject to Hindu law. You could not, for instance, contract a marriage under the Act 30 of 1923, which has completely abolished all castes so far as the marriage law is concerned between a Hindu and a Mahar, touchable and untouchable. Now, if you go out of that community, out of that social system, and call yourself a nonHindu, you will be outside the pale of Hindu law to that extent ? Dr. Ambedkar: It might be.

478 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 171. Then by what law would you be governed ? Dr. Ambedkar: We are governed by the Hindu law, just as, for instance, the Khojas, who are Mahomedans, prefer to be governed by Hindu law so far as the devolution of property is concerned. 172. And you are under the Act 30 of 1923 ; you are under Hindu law ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know what the depressed classes would think about marriage. 173. Would you kindly turn to your memorandum ? You say at page 39, and you also repeated it today in answer to my friend Mr. Kikabhai, “the standing of the community must mean its power to protect itself in the social struggle. That power would obviously depend upon the educational and economic status of the community.” Dr. Ambedkar: Quite. 174. It follows from the recognition of the principle that the lower the standing of a community, the greater electoral advantage it must get over the rest. Do you adduce this last sentence as a logical deduction from the premises, from the previous two sentences ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 175. You regard that as a logical deduction ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, quite. 176. ...... I wish to draw your attention to the fact that you say : “In addition to the demand for adequate representation, the Sabha feels that it must also demand the inclusion of clauses in the constitution of the country.” Now, amongst these clauses you find things like this mentioned: “the right of every depressed class to the appointment of a special inspector of police from amongst themselves” ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 177. Do you expect that an Act of Parliament should contain a clause to this effect, that the depressed classes in India shall have an inspector of police in every district from amongst themselves ? Dr. Ambedkar: I really do not see anything strange in that 178. Supposing there was a provision to that effect relating to all communities (because if you have got certain constitutional guarantees it follows by necessary implication that other communities have an equal right), then you parcel out all the official posts and you parcel out all the other things amongst the various communities, and that is the constitution that you foresee for India ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know that. I am only speaking for the depressed classes. May I just make one thing clear ? 179. May I just complete my sentence ? That is a contingency that does not arouse any apprehension in your mind ? Dr. Ambedkar: Just let me explain before you go further. I think we must be very careful in using the word “minority”. I do not think simply because a community happens to be a community composed of small numbers it is therefore necessarily a minority for political purposes.

479EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION A minority which is oppressed, or whose rights are denied or the majority, would be a minority that would be fit for consideration for political purposes. 180. Wherever you have these minorities in other countries, there is provision made, there is sometimes a minister for the protection of minorities. Have you thought about that ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 181. Supposing we gave you the protection—the protection might be given in any form, and if I may say so ? Dr. Ambedkar: I am sorry to interrupt you—I do find that the new constitutions that have been framed after the peace for the various European countries composing the bulk of the Slavonic nations very largely embody this principle. I have devoted some special attention to this subject, if you will permit me to say so. 182. Lord Burnham: And carried out ? Dr. Ambedkar: And made part of the Constitution. 183. And carried out in practice too? Dr. Ambedkar: Carried out in practice ; and the point is this, that if a minority feels that the guarantee has not been fulfilled, it has the right of appeal to the League of Nations. ***** 186. I am not quarrelling with the principle ? Dr. Ambedkar: And I may say I am not very particular about the form. 187. If the details of the scheme which you have adumbrated were to be introduced into the constitution of ‘this country, would it not lead to a perpetual class war ? Dr. Ambedkar: It might, but that would depend upon the attitude of the majority. 188. Therefore you would not, as a sagacious statesman ? Dr. Ambedkar: If you will permit me to say so, all these things, though I insist upon them, I admit to be provisions of a transitory character. I do contemplate and I do desire, the time when India shall be one ; and I believe that a time will come when, for instance, all these things will not be necessary ; but all that would depend upon the attitude of the majority towards the minority. ***** 198. Now, you mentioned a case that you conducted on behalf of a member of the depressed class, who, from fear of social ostracism, stood outside near the window. What district was it ? Dr. Ambedkar: Khandesh district. 199. Ordinary Magistrate’s Court ? Dr. Ambedkar: The stipendiary Magistrate’s Court. 200. What caste was the Magistrate ? Dr. Ambedkar: A Hindu. 201. He did not object to the accused coming into the court ?

480 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Dr. Ambedkar: No. I say the accused himself would not come in. 202. The accused himself was terrorised by the past acts of the Hindus ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 203. The fear had been engendered in the minds of the depressed classes on account of the oppression of the caste Hindus that he would not get a square deal thereafter if he was to trench upon the limited rights which he had been given by the caste Hindus ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 204. Sir Hari Singh Gour: I think you will admit, Dr. Ambedkar, that during the last few years there has been a forward movement in the way of removing untouchability and removing all disqualifications from the path of the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 205. I admit that the reforms have not been commensurate with your desires and mind, but at the same time, we have to recognise that there is a growing feeling that there must be a consolidation of the Hindu people by removing all these barriers that stand between the caste and the non-caste Hindus. You recognise that ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, there are speeches from the platform. 206. There are positive actions ? Dr. Ambedkar: Speaking for my part of the country, the Bombay Presidency, I would rather hesitate to accept your proposition. 207. Therefore, I will give you examples. Every year, for instance, wherever there is a caste and no-caste society, Hindus hold annual dinners, and they all sit together for the purpose of making one class of people accustomed to the other class of people ? Dr. Ambedkar: I am not aware of it in this Presidency. 208. I have attended several of them. Dr. Ambedkar: In this Presidency? Sir Hari Singh Gour: No, in Nagpur. 209. There is no such movement here ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. 210. But you admit that there is recognition of the fact that oppression and untouchability must go, and that every effort to suggest anything in that way receives sympathetic consideration from the caste Hindus, and particularly from the Reformers ? Dr. Ambedkar. I would hesitate, again, to answer that. Chairman: Would you agree, in order to get this witness’s view of the facts, that I should ask two or three questions on your line ? Sir Hari Singh Gour: Yes Sir, certainly. 211. Chairman: Mr. Rajah would be, in many ways, the best person to do it, but I wish you would tell us your own view. Compare twenty years ago with now in the Bombay Presidency. How many years, if I may ask, have you been here ?

481EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION Dr. Ambedkar : Five or six years. 212. You have, of course, taken an interest in your own community since long before that ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 213. You can look back twenty years and give us some ideal ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 214. Let me take two or three things. First of all I imagine that there is no change at all so far as regards the admission of the depressed classes to the interior of a Hindu temple. That, of course, is a matter of religious practice and teaching. I do not criticise it, but there is no change at all ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, there is no change at all in that respect. 215. What I want to know is this. Let us take two or three definite things in this Presidency. In the country districts, you have told us that as a rule the depressed classes, the untouchables, live in a place for themselves. Of course, we have seen it many times. Sometimes they five in a corner of the village, if it happens to be a Hindu village, and sometimes in a hamlet of their own. Now is there any change in the last twenty years as regards their living among the general communities ? Dr. Ambedkar: No change. 216. We saw some of the villages the other day. We understand some of them can draw water from the river, but I suppose there are other villages that rely on wells ? Dr. Ambedkar: Even in the case of rivers they can take water only from a portion of the river. A point on the river is appointed for them. 217. That is to say, the depressed classes will draw water at a point lower down than the caste Hindus ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 218. Now let us take the case of villages that rely on wells. It is not uncommon ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, not uncommon. 219. I am anxious to know and I hope you will tell me quite frankly, is there in that respect any improvement in the last twenty years ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. 220. Your attention has been called to the fact that there have been resolutions passed on this subject ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, only resolutions. 221. It is suggested that untouchability sometimes goes to such a length that the actual contact with the man (or sometimes his shadow itself) is regardedsocially by those of the higher castes as a pollution ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 222. Is there an improvement in that respect ? Dr. Ambedkar: There is an improvement in that respect. 223. I am glad to hear that. That is, whereas 20 years ago a caste Hindu who found himself in close contact with an untouchable would possibly think it his religious duty to purify himself, it is not viewed with so much