Vol. 2 · pages 501–505

482 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES strictness now ; is that correct ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 224. Then, of course, as compared with twenty years ago I imagine that there are some members of the depressed classes who have in fact risen very much in the professional scale. Twenty years ago were there depressed classes who were practising at the Bar in Bombay ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. 225. How many members of the depressed classes practise at the Bar now ? Dr. Ambedkar: I am the only man. 226. I think we were told yesterday that in the list of voters for the Sardars and Inamdars there were two members of the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Only one. His position is different. His jagir was granted by the Peshwas for the services rendered on the battlefield. His title was not given by the British Government. 227. What one notices is that in India there is gradually being introduced the motor bus connecting the town with the village and I see them going along the road. Are those public vehicles open to the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Not in villages. There are a great many villages where the depressed classes are not allowed to travel in these buses 228. Who prevents them ? Dr. Ambedkar: The driver would not take them. 229. One would expect the driver to take anybody who pays. Why does he not take them ? Dr. Ambedkar: Because if he takes them the other people will not come into his car. For instance, the barber here would not shave my head even though I offer him a rupee. 230. Rao Saheb Patil: According to law the driver would be prosecuted if he refuses to take any passenger ? Dr. Ambedkar: That can be evaded by saying that all seats are booked. 231. Are matters improving in that respect ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, they are improving; but still there are numerous cases where the depressed classes would not be allowed to enter into these buses. 232. Let us take the depressed classes who are employed in the mills in Bombay. Some of them go in trams, I suppose. Do you suggest that they are not allowed to use the trams ? Dr. Ambedkar: There was a case two years ago where a Bhungi was not allowed to board a tram. 233. When you speak of the case two years ago it suggests to me that it is rather exceptional than a rule ? Dr. Ambedkar: I have seen, for instance, when I was travelling by the B.B. & CI. Railway hundreds of cases where the passengers obstructed the depressed classes coming into the compartments.

483EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION 234. Sir Hari Singh Gour: With regard to the case of the Bhungi which you mentioned, are you sure if he was not properly attired and therefore be was not allowed to get into the tram ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know about that. 235. Before a man gets into the tram he is not asked to which caste he belongs ; they only ask him whether he has got the fare, is it not ? Dr. Ambedkar: But people can easily recognise him. 236. That is on account of his dress ? Dr. Ambedkar: But he will be dealt with very badly when once he is recognised to belong to the depressed classes. 237. Apart from the question of caste there is also the question of costume ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, but some of the members of the depressed class are very well dressed. 238. In the Bombay Presidency you have no such thing as to consider it a pollution to walk in the shadow of a depressed class member ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, it exists in some parts of the Konkan and in Kathiawad. 239. It is on the wane ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 240. With regard to the Ambalal Sarlal School in Ahmedabad, has not his sister started the school for depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: That is the only honourable exception. 241. Is not the school maintained for the depressed classes from public funds ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know that, but I know that that lady is taking interest in the elevation of the depressed classes. 242. Chairman: I understand it is an exceptional case ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, it is quite an exceptional case. 243. Dr. Suhrawardy: In view of the instances of social ostracism and tyranny which you have just stated, do you not think that in a general election members of your community will be frightened out of the polling booths ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, it may happen. 244. Also there is the further apprehension that the high caste-Hindus may refuse to come and participate in the elections where the untouchables go to record their votes ? Dr. Ambedkar: They might; it is very difficult to say what might happen. We have cases, for instance, where the caste-Hindu members of district boards have left the premises because the depressed class members have claimed to sit at the table. 245. Do you not think that, in view of this state of affairs, it will be better for you to have a separate electorate because in practice it will mean a separate electorate even if you reserve your seats in a general electorates ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes.

484 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 246. Rao Bahadur Rajah: With reference to the question put by my friend, Sir Hari Singh Gour, regarding the costume of the depressed classes, did the barber refuse to shave your head because you were not well dressed ? Dr. Ambedkar: No; it is because I belong to the depressed class. 247. Not on account of the dress you were wearing ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. 248. With regard to another question put by another member of the Committee, may I ask you whether it is easy for a depressed class member in a village to file a suit against the owner of a bus because he has refused to take him ? Dr. Ambedkar: It is not possible. 249. I understand that you have been taking very much interest in the uplift of the depressed classes. What has been your experience during your propaganda as to the help you receive in this work from the higher classes ? Do they help you to impress upon the depressed classes the need for greater sanitation, hygiene and such like things ? Dr. Ambedkar: My experience, unfortunately, is rather very bitter in this matter. The depressed classes have been dubbed to be unfit for association because of certain unclean habits. That is the allegation of the upper classes. That is to say, they eat the meat of the dead animals and they are not clean, and so on. In this Presidency during the last two years I started a campaign to purify the depressed classes, so to say, and to persuade them to give up some of their dirty habits. But, to my great misfortune, I found the whole caste-Hindu population up against me when in a matter like this I expected the utmost co-operation from them. But when I began to analyse the basis of their opposition I found that they insisted upon the depressed class people doing the unclean things because giving up doing these things meant that the depressed classes were exceeding their social status and rivalling the upper class. For instance, in the Colaba and Ratnagiri districts the whole of the Mahar population have given up the eating of the meat of dead animals, but the tyranny and social oppression that is going on against them is simply unspeakable; there is a complete economic and social boycott. The lands they had been cultivating for years past have been taken away from them by their caste-Hindu landlords. Every sort of pressure, social and economic, has been brought to bear upon the depressed classes in order to compel them to resume their dirty habits. The officials, who are all casteHindus, give no protection to the depressed classes, whose condition has really become pitiable, and all this because they sought to give up their dirty habits. Instead of getting co-operation I find that the members of the upper classes are up against me, and they say “these evil habits of the depressed classes are all insignia of their inferiority and they must remain.” 250. The other day we heard a witness say that there is not a single depressed class member on the sanitary boards. If what you have said

485EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION just now with regard to the higher castes is true, is there any good in the depressed class members, being on these boards so far as their sanitary improvement is concerned ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think the depressed class people ought to be represented on every local authority. 251. You told us just now that in the courts in this Presidency witnesses belonging to the depressed classes have no access. I want to be clear on that point. Do you mean to say that the members of the depressed class are not admitted into some of the courts ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 252. And I understand you to say that in a case the man did not dare go into the court, is that so ? Dr. Ambedkar: The thing is the depressed class man is looked upon by the caste people as having a particular station in life, he exceeds that station in life when he enters the court, and if he exceeded that station in life they would begin to harass him. The man, if he exceeded the social limits, would subsequently suffer at the hands of the caste people. My protection in that particular case was only temporary protection and he knew it would cease as soon as the case was over. 253. If you had not been there and if he attempted to go into the court, what would have happened to him ? Dr. Ambedkar: I think the same thing would have happened to me when I tried to enter a temple in Bombay. 254. Coming to medical relief, will you kindly enlighten us as to the kind of medical relief the depressed class men are getting ? Dr. Ambedkar: They are not allowed entry into the dispensary, unless the case is a very very serious one; such as, for instance, the non-admission would bring the officer’s conduct to the notice of the higher authorities. Ordinarily the medicine is dispensed out 255. Chairman: I suppose you are talking of dispensaries in the mofussil ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, Government dispensaries. 256. They are, of course, in the department of the Minister of Medical Administration ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 257. I imagine that the regulations of the Minister provide that these dispensaries are open to everybody who goes ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 258. But you say that in the mofussil in fact it does not work out like that ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. Dr. Solanki: The Hindu medical man who is orthodox always takes objection to examine a man belonging to the depressed classes. There have been instances in Gujarat where the men have actually died from the want of medical relief. I know of instances where doctors have actually

486 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES refused even to touch the patient when he was suffering from pneumonia. The doctor would hand over the thermometer to a Mahomedan who does not know how to hold the thermometer and the Mahomedan would hand over the thermometer to the patient. This is a fact and it has happened. 259. What is important, I think, as I said before and I may repeat it, is to get a true picture. The thing may happen occasionally. I want to know whether what you are describing is quite an exceptional thing due to some particular doctor’s objection or whether you think it is an everyday happening ? Dr. Solanki: Doctors who are orthodox do it. 260. The difficulty about this thing is that the objection that is taken by the medical man is an objection based on his own religious views ? Dr. Solanki: Yes. 261. Rao Bahadur Rajah: Have these facts been brought to the notice of the authorities concerned ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 262. What was the action they took ? Dr. Ambedkar: The reply the Minister gave was that we had belter depend on persuasion; that was the word he used. Chairman: Would you do this for us, Rao Bahadur ? One hears of different aspects of this and I want to know the facts. What is the position about the depressed class children in the ordinary public schools in this province ? Would you ask the witness about that for me ? 263. Rao Bahadur Rajah: Will you kindly enlighten us as to the attitude of the schoolmasters or the Education Department or the managers of schools towards the children of the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: There is a circular issued by Dr. Paranjpye when he was Minister of Education in this Presidency to the effect that children of depressed classes should be admitted in all schools. But our experience is that circular has not been carried out at all. It is true that in the report of the Director of Public Instruction it is stated that that circular has been carried into effect; but I beg to differ from that view. It is not a correct statement of facts as they exist today. There is an incident here at Poona which took place only a few days ago, at Deoo, where the children of the depressed classes were refused admission and when they insisted on it the village proclaimed social boycott against the depressed classes. 264. Chairman : The memorandum refers to that report ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, that is not a correct statement of facts as I said. I beg to differ from that 265. Rao Bahadur Rajah: I understood from Mr. Griffith that in his view there are reasons why the depressed classes could not be taken into the police department as the duties of the police involved house searches and arrests. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that is true, would there be similar objection to the recruitment of the depressed class members to other subordinate and provincial services ?