Vol. 2 · pages 506–510

487EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION Dr. Ambedkar: Find that there are so many objections raised. 266. You are a member of the Local Legislative Council ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 267. What is your experience as regards the attitude of the higher caste members of the local Council towards your community ? Dr. Ambedkar: One cannot say it is favourable to the depressed classes. 268. What is the attitude of the Government towards the members of your community in your Provinces ? Dr. Ambedkar: Very apathetic. 269. I suppose you have got honorary bench magistrates’ courts in this Presidency. Are there any members of the depressed classes on these boards ? Dr. Ambedkar: There are none and we are trying to get some on the bench of magistrates, but without effect. Perhaps it might be interesting to the Conference if I read in this connection a letter written by the Collector of the Khandesh district to a member of the depressed classes when he applied for an appointment on the bench. This letter also gives the reasons why he should not be appointed to the place, and it reads thus : “The Collector has every sympathy with the aspirations of the depressed classes and is glad to recognise and appreciate Mr. Medhe’s good work in the various fields of public activities ; but in his opinion time has not yet come when a member of the depressed classes can be given a seat on the bench of magistrates, and, until the Government makes some pronouncement favourable to the aspiration of the depressed classes in this Presidency he must regretfully express his inability to recommend such an appointment” This letter is dated 25th September 1928. 270. I am sure you will agree with me that appointments to these bodies have nothing to do with the progress of the communities ? Dr. Ambedkar: Nothing. 271. The sole consideration should be whether the individual candidate can discharge his duties with a sense of responsibility ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 272. Lord Burnham: I understood you to say that of all the methods to protect the interests of the depressed classes, you preferred the universal suffrage ? Dr. Ambedkar: I would rather say adequate representation in the Legislative Council. 273. I understand you to say you were in favour of universal suffrage ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 274. If you have not got that you go in for separate electorates ? Supposing you cannot get either, are you still in favour of the principle of nomination ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. I would insist on our representative being elected.

488 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 275. If you cannot get the election on the terms proposed, you would prefer adult franchise ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 276. Chairman: You have spoken of your strong preference for the representation of the depressed classes being secured by the method of election. Are you satisfied, supposing the method was the method of election, that the result would be that you will get elected those who were really the best spokesmen for the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: I believe so. 277. You do not feel anxious that influences which were really against the interests of the depressed classes will get to work ? Dr. Ambedkar: I admit that and that is why I want adult suffrage. 278. You think that the influence will cease because of the adult suffrage ? Dr. Ambedkar: That will be counterbalanced. 279. Supposing that a member of the depressed classes has the necessary qualification, does he vote in a general constituency ? Dr. Ambedkar: He does. 280. Taking your case you will have a qualification to vote in some general constituency ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes ; I vote for the University constituency as also my friend. 281. How does the position stand about the paying of taxes ? A suggestion was made that depressed classes do not pay the taxes. Of course, it follows that, as regards the Customs duties and other indirect taxes which may raise the price of the articles, I suppose the depressed classes will have to pay the increased price like anybody else ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. Also the depressed class men, particularly the Mahar community, is always in possession of some land of ordinary tenure or watan tenure at any rate, and they pay what is called the judi, that is the assessment, as anybody else. 282. I suppose that a good many Mahars follow the occupation of waiters in private service ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, very few. But they mainly work in industries in the cities. 283. Take, for instance, a European private house or a club, they employ Mahars ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes. 284. Are those people qualified to vote in a general constituency or not? Dr. Ambedkar: That will depend on the pitch of franchise. 285. As a rule the waiters would not have any qualification ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, under the existing circumstances. 286. Sardar Mujumdar: Are you aware that saints from the depressed

489EVIDENCE BEFORE SIMON COMMISSION classes arc revered by all classes, and high-class persons bow down before them as much as before such saints from higher classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: There is only one case so far as I know. 287. But do they do so ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, as they do the Mahomedan Pir. 288. Are you aware that untouchability is not observed in the Warkari Panth, i.e. the devotees of the God Vithoba at Pandharpur ? Dr. Ambedkar: That is entirely incorrect. 289. Do you agree that there is a vast change during the last 25 years in the treatment accorded to the depressed classes, that the educated higher classes are trying to remove this evil of untouchability and mix with them quite freely and that there is a gradual change in the condition of the depressed classes and in the treatment accorded to them by the general educated public ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, it is so, though the sympathy is only in words and is seldom translated into action. 290. Are you aware that in almost all villages the depressed class people are provided with wells meant only for their own use ? Dr. Ambedkar: No. 291. Are there not such wells ? Dr. Ambedkar: Not in every village. 292. Who are the depressed classes ? Will you please name the castes ? Dr. Ambedkar: There is the census. 293. Do inter-marriages take place between the Mang and the Mahar castes ? Dr. Ambedkar: No, the caste Hindus have spread their poison to the rest. 294. Do they dine together ? Dr. Ambedkar: Yes, now-a-days. The movement for consolidation is going on and there is now a case of inter-marriage between a Mang and a Mahar. 295. Are there not two Inamdars in my constituency who belong to the depressed classes ? Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know.

E *NOTE BY Dr. B. R. AMBEDKAR TO THE INDIAN FRANCHISE COMMITTEE (LOTHIAN COMMITTEE) ON THE DEPRESSED CLASSES SUBMITTED ON 1st MAY 1932 I. General 1. I have agreed to confine the term depressed classes to untouchables only. In fact, I have myself sought to exclude from the untouchables all those in whom there cannot be the same consciousness of kind as is shared by those who suffer from the social discrimination that is inherent in the system of untouchability and who are therefore likely to exploit the untouchables for their own purposes. I have also raised no objection to the utilisation of tests 7 and 8 referred to in the Committee’s report for the ascertainment of the untouchable classes. But as I find that different persons seek to apply them in different ways, or put different constructions on them I feel it necessary to explain my point of view in regard to this matter. 2. In the first place it is urged in some quarters that whatever tests are applied for ascertaining the untouchable classes they must be applied uniformly all over India. In this connection, I desire to point out that in a matter of this sort it would hardly be appropriate to apply the same test or tests all over India. India is not a single homogeneous country. It is a continent. The various Provinces are marked by extreme diversity of conditions and there is no tie of race or language. Owing to absence of communication each Province has evolved along its own lines with its own peculiar manners and modes of social life. In such circumstances the degree of uniformity with which most of the tests of untouchability are found to apply all over India is indeed remarkable. For instance, bar against temple entry exists everywhere in India. Even the tests of well-water and pollution * Report of the Indian Franchise Committee, Vol. I, Second Edition, pp. 202-11, The Indian Franchise Committee was constituted on the recommendations by the Franchise Sub-Committee of the Round Table Conference in December 1931. The Committee consisted of 18 members including Dr. Ambedkar. The Marquess of Lothian, C. H., Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for India, was the Chairman of this Committee.