Vol. 2 · pages 766–770

745 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL meral Parliament and that the debates in the House of Lords must be read in conjunction with those in the House of Commons. 14,690. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: If I may say so respectfully, I wish to understand your position alone, irrespective of the position of the House of Lords or other members of the Party. You stated definitely that you would vote with the Government, provided the Prime Minister’s statement was issued in conjunction with the speech made by the Secretary of State. The point which I wish to submit to you respectfully is this : Do you see any difference in the White Paper as presented to the Joint Parliamentary Committee, and the statement by the Prime Minister as interpreted that day by. the Secretary of State in the House of Commons ? If there is, of course, you have every ground to differ ? Sir Winston Churchill: I can assure Dr. Ambedkar that I have never been in favour of a federal system being erected at this time at the Centre of India nor of transferring law and order in the Provinces, and nothing that I have ever said in this controversy is in conflict with that. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I have no more questions to ask. ***** †14,945. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: My Lord Chairman, may I ask a question with your permission ? Chairman: If you please. 14,946. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I just want to ask you one question, Mr. Churchill. Do you make any distinction between responsible government and Dominion Status ? Sir Winston Churchill: Oh, yes. Responsible government has many interpretations, many that we know in practice and we have seen. Responsible government may mean serious, real, important functions transferred to the discretion of a Provincial, or local body, or it may mean the various degrees of responsible government which have a technical understanding in the language of the Dominions and Colonial Offices, namely, Ministers responsible to the Assembly and so forth, but there are very considerable gradations in the history of our outlying Dominions and Empire in the exact form of institutions, which would be covered by the term “responsible government”. ***** ‡15,147. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Would you agree that the masses should be given adult suffrage ? Sir Winston Churchill: No. 15,148. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Why not ? Sir Winston Churchill: Because I think it quite impracticable. †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 25th October 1933, p. 1833. ‡Ibid., p. 1849.

746 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES (18) Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Gidney, M.L.A., I.M.S. (Retired), on behalf of the Anglo-Indian and Domiciled European Association of India *16,241. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I realise from your Memorandum that you are very apprehensive of what may happen to your community under the new Constitution. I believe your apprehensions are shared by many other minorities. Therefore, the question I want to put to you is this : Would it serve any purpose which you have in view if a provision was made in the Constitution that there should be some officer or some Department in the future Central Government of India which was charged with the statutory duty of presenting to Parliament annually a Report on the moral and material condition of the various communities in India ? Do you think that proposal would be of any use to your community in drawing the attention of Parliament to anything that may have occurred in the course of the administration of various provinces affecting your material interests ? Sir Henry Gidney: That proposal meets with my entire approval as the ultima thule of what would be the protection of minorities, but, as a preliminary canter to that the minorities, in my humble submission, demand protection not in so far as someone can report to the Houses of Parliament annually, but a practical protection. 16,242. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Let me make myself clear. What I am suggesting is not in substitution of what you are asking; it may be supplemental to what you are asking ? Sir Henry Gidney : Yes. 16,243 Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Do you agree with me that this opportunity, or this method of exposing possible abuses of power in itself serve as a check against any possible abuse ? Sir Henry Gidney: I certainly think it would be a means of bringing to the Houses of Parliament anything in the way of a prejudicial effect on Communities. 16,244. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Not merely yours, but of many others ? Sir Henry Gidney: Of all minorities. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: What would Parliament be expected to do thereupon ? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It would lie there. Parliament would take note of the various Governments. Not only should the Governor-General know, but Parliament should know how the various Governments are executing their responsibilities to the various minorities which are placed under their charge. Sir Hari Singh Gour: And you would call that Provincial autonomy ? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Yes ; I certainly would. *Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 10th November 1933, p. 1996.

747 EVIDENCE : MR. J. C. FRENCH AND MR. S. H. MILLS (19) Mr. J. C. French and Mr. S. H. Mills on behalf of Indian Police *16,904. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Mr. Mills, there is just one question I should like to ask you, because I am rather interested in getting your view of this matter. You stated somewhat emphatically that under the proposed Constitution in Bengal, Muslims and the Depressed Classes would be under the influence of the Congress ? Mr. S. H. Mills: I think there is every chance of their being under the influence of the Congress —a percentage of them. 16,905. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You said about 20 of the Depressed Classes ? Mr. S. H. Mills: Yes. 16,906. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I suppose it is not your suggestion that as it is today there are any Depressed Classes or there are any Muhammadans who are in sympathy with the terrorist movement ? Mr. S. H. Mills: We have quite a large number of Depressed Classes who have been arrested as terrorists. 16,907. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: From what community ? Mr. S. H. Mills: We have had some from peculiar communities and there have been a number of Shahas ; then from Midnapore quite a number of the Depressed Classes have been arrested — particularly Midnapore. 16,908. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Shaha is not a scheduled caste of the Depressed Classes ? Mr. S. H. Mills: No. In the Midnapore district there have been quite a number of the Depressed Classes who have been arrested. 16,909. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Now the next point that I want to draw your attention to is this : May I just put it ? Is it your experience, for instance, that a large community like the Namasudras in Bengal are in any way connected with the terrorist movement ? Mr. S. H. Mills : Yes, they are. 16,910. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The next question that I want to ask you is this : You know that under the White Paper proposals the minorities of Bengal have separate electorates ? Mr. S. H. Mills: Yes. 16,911. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Do you still think that, notwithstanding the separate electorates, the Congress will have any influence in the election of the members of these communities ? Mr. S. H. Mills: I think it is highly probable. 16,912. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: How would that influence be felt ? Mr. S. H. Mills: Because the Congress having the terrorists behind them is very greatly feared in the Province, and that fear would tend to dominate them. *Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-C, 13th November 1933, p. 2043.

748 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES (20) Secretary of state for India’s Evidence before the Joint Committee on Indian Constitutional Reform †The Right Hon. Sir Samuel Hoare, Bt., G.B.E., C.M.G., M.P., Sir Malcolm Hailey, G.C.S.L., G.C.L.E., and Sir Findlater Stewart, K.C.B., K.C.I.E., C.S.I. ‡6394. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I have not followed it I think even under Proposals 92 and 95, although the Legislature may be in Session, the Governor will not be bound to put his legislation before the Legislature if he so thinks ? Sir Samuel Hoare: That is perfectly true. The Governor has full discretion. 6395. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The Governor has full discretion ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Whether for ordinances or for legislation, on his own initiative. * * * * * §6440. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to pursue this point a stage further. You said that would depend on the circumstances of the case. That was not the question of Sir Tej Sapru. The question is, is this Clause wide enough to give the power to intervene and say : “No, this will interfere with peace and tranquillity, and I will not allow you to introduce this legislation” ? Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru: The Clause is merely wide enough to allow the Governor to take action if he is convinced that it will lead to a grave menace to the peace and tranquillity of the Province, not mere that he thinks such legislation is undesirable in the interests of one class or another. 6441. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: If he comes to that conclusion this clause is wide enough for him to say : “I will not allow you to proceed with such legislation” ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I can only say we have had in the United Provinces within the last two years the menace of very grave trouble indeed arising out of the agrarian situation, and dealing with the rental question. There was a stage then when, in my opinion, this clause would undoubtedly have applied, but it would have applied because there was threatening of actual risings of tenants in certain parts of the Province. I would not have held that it would have applied if it had been merely the case that one class or other would have been prejudicially affected by the Legislature. * * * * * ¶6533. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to know whether the Secretary of †Sir Samuel Hoare was the Secretary of State for India, Sir Malcolm Hailey was the Governor of United Province, and Sir Findlater Stewart was the Permanent Under Secretary of India Office, London. ‡Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 14th July 1933, p. 729. §Ibid., p. 735. ¶Ibid., p. 747.

749 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS State desires me to reserve any questions upon Second Chambers for the Provinces ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I would suggest, so far as the Constitution of the Second Chambers goes (the membership), perhaps it would be better to take that with the franchise generally. 6534. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: This franchise question ought to be excluded at this stage ? Sir Samuel Hoare : Whatever the Committee thinks, I should have thought it came better into the franchise. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I will not ask any questions of the Secretary of State. Chairman: I think the Secretary of State’s suggestion is a practical one. I hope you will not put questions at this stage. 6535. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I was going to ask the composition of the Second Chamber. Would it be better to reserve it ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, I think perhaps that would be better. 6536. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You said in the course of a reply to a question put last time, that you contemplated that in the Provinces the Ministers could be drawn from either Chamber, both the Lower and the Upper ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 6537. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: You remember that in the Second Chamber, as suggested in the White Paper, there are to be 10 nominated Members ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 6538. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is it the proposal that these 10 nominated members who will sit in the Upper Chamber will also be eligible for being Ministers ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, I would not draw any distinction between them and the others. 6539. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The nominated members would be eligible for being Ministers ? Sir Samuel Hoare : Yes, certainly; that is how I conceive it to be. 6540. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: In the present Government of India Act there is a distinct provision that any member who is a nominated member of the Provincial Legislature is not eligible for being a Minister ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I take it from Dr. Ambedkar that is so. 6541. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar . I stand subject to correction, but I believe that is the position ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 6542. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : So you are really introducing the very important change by allowing nominated members in the Upper Chambers to be Ministers in the new Government ? Sir Samuel Hoare: It is, of course, a very different kind of Government. 6543. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am not going into the reasons, but I am only stating the facts ?