Vol. 2 · pages 781–785

760 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES against it in view of his objection to the provisions made regarding representation of the Depressed Classes, which, in his view, would have produced an artificial splitting of the Hindu community. In published correspondence the Prime Minister gave the reasons why the Government were unable to take the same view, but Mr. Gandhi remained unconvinced and began his fast. Negotiations now began, under Mr. Gandhi’s auspices, between the representatives of caste-Hindus and representatives of the Depressed Classes led by Dr. Ambedkar. As a result an agreement was reached, now known as the Poona Pact, by which the number of the Depressed Classes seats in each province were increased above that recommended by the Communal Award, while a different system of election was substituted. The total number of Hindu seats (known technically as “general” seats) for caste-Hindus and Depressed Classes taken together remained the same under the Poona Pact as under the original Communal Award. The Government accepted the provisions of this Pact in modification of their Communal Award as being a mutually agreed practicable alternative under the provisions of paragraph 4 quoted above, and on this being announced Mr. Gandhi broke off his fast. The White Paper proposals on pages 91 and 93 incorporate the terms of the Poona Pact. 7. The position of the Government, therefore, as regards the proposals of the White Paper which cover the composition of Provincial Legislatures and the method of election thereto* is that they themselves are specifically pledged not to recommend to Parliament any variation of these proposals except such as may be mutually agreed upon by the communities concerned, and they are also pledged as a Government not to participate in any negotiations for the purpose of reaching such a change. The Government interpret this pledge as covering the provisions of the Poona Pact which they have themselves accepted in the circumstances explained above. 8. The original Communal Award was concerned only with the Provincial Legislatures owing to the fact that corresponding provisions for the Centre could not very well be settled pending a decision on the numbers to be assigned in the Federal Legislature to British India and British Indian States respectively. The proposals in Appendices I and II of the White Paper, which should be read with paragraph 18 of the Introduction to the White Paper, now contain the Government’s proposals on this subject. These proposals are in effect supplementary to the original Communal Award. The Government have, however, not given in respect to them a specific pledge similar to that contained in paragraph 4 of the original announcement quoted above. While, therefore, they are not anxious to see a fresh investigation de novo into these proposals for allocation between the communities of seats in the Central Legislature, they do not consider these proposals to stand as regards their own attitude, in exactly the same *This does not cover Franchise.

761 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS position as the Provincial Communal Award, but they see the gravest objection to any change on two points, viz., the allocation of one-third of the British India seats in the Federal Legislature to Muslims, and the percentages of the seats allocated to British India and the States respectively.† 9. To summarise, it will be clear from the above that the Communal Award has reference only to the composition of the Legislatures, and is not concerned with the whole of the manifold points in the Constitution which have a communal aspect (e.g. special responsibilities of Governors and GovernorGeneral, relations between Centre and Provinces, fundamental rights, etc.) and also that in respect of the matters provided for in the Communal Award, the Government have clearly defined their position and the conditions upon which alone they would think it justifiable to depart from it. ***** ‡7231. Sir Austen Chamberlain: Is it the intention of the Secretary of State at sometime during our proceedings to make proposals of that kind to us ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Certainly ; I think it is quite essential that in any Constitution Act, somewhere or other, there should be provision for constituent powers. 7232. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I may draw attention to similar provisions in the present Government of India Act. There are certain sections mentioned in an appendix. Sir Samuel Hoare: It is I think following the lines of every Constitution Act and following the lines of the Government of India Act itself. ***** 7236. Lord Salisbury: I have read it as well as 1 can at the moment, but I have not been able to appreciate it fully ? Sir Samuel Hoare : If Lord Salisbury will look at it again, always keeping in mind the fact that this is one of the questions which we have to consider and for which we have eventually to make some kind of provision in the Constitution Act, I think he will fully appreciate it. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It is the Fifth Schedule to the Government of India Act : “The provisions of this Act which may be repealed or altered by the Indian Legislature.” ***** §7260. Marquess of Zetland: May I ask one supplementary question? With regard to those four constituencies which will return Depressed Class representatives, will they overlap territorially ? †To prevent misapprehension, it may be explained that of the ten Governor-General’s nominees in the Upper Chamber, it is intended that six should be from British India and four from the States. ‡Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 20th July 1933, p. 828. §Ibid., 21st July 1933, p. 832.

762 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Sir Samuel Hoare: I do not think it has been worked out, but I think they will be chosen not to overlap. The whole area of Madras will be divided up into 15 areas ; 11 of these, as I see it, will be of the ordinary kind. 7261. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Fifteen will be general ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I make 11 ordinary, making 19 in all; 11 single members and four double members. 7262. Mr. Zafrulla Khan : May I put one question to Sir Findlater Stewart to clear up one aspect of it ? I merely want to understand it. Supposing a panel of four is chosen and then they proceed to contest or this particular constituency reserved for them amongst themselves. One knows if a contest comes forward, everybody will vote who can vote in a general constituency, but supposing three of them say : “We do not wish to contest this election,” would it be possible for them to withdraw before the election takes place ? Sir Findlater Stewart: It is an interpretation of the Poona Pact. Sir Samuel Hoare : What does Dr. Ambedkar say? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is the view, that it is not obligatory upon all four of them to contest. Sir N. N. Sircar: That is the view, but that is not the language used. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: Another aspect is, are the Depressed Classes in any of these particular constituencies bound to put forward four candidates ? Supposing they put forward only one, will the terms of the Pact be complied with ? What does His Majesty’s Government understand the Pact to mean in that respect ? Sir A. P. Patro: The purpose of preliminary election will be defeated. What is meant by preliminary election is electing four people for a seat ? Sir N. N. Sircar: Dr. Ambedkar will vouch that I am putting the interpretation which was understood at the time of the making of the Poona Pact. It was understood that the Depressed Classes should have the liberty, instead of electing four, to elect one only. In that case, automatically the one got through. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: That is quite right. Mr. Zafrulla Khan: If they put forward four, one could withdraw. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Yes. ***** †7488. Sir N. N. Sircar: May I get some facts before the Committee ? I am not putting any argument; I only want to put some facts so that the Committee can get them in a short compass. The communal decision is dated the 17th August, 1932 ? Sir Samuel Hoare: August 16th. 7489. Sir N. N. Sircar: In my copy it is the 17th. One day does not matter. Under this award or decision the net result of that was, as regards the depressed classes, that they would vote in the general constituencies, and †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 21st July 1933, pp. 858-63. Correspondence referred to in this discussion in paras 7488 to 7509 is printed at pp. 707-14 of this Book.

763 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS their number of seats would be 10, and the arrangement would come to an end after 20 years. To put it very shortly that was the decision ? Sir Samuel Hoare : Yes. 7490. Sir N. N. Sircar: The other date is the 18th August, 1932. That is the date on which Mahatma Gandhi wrote his letter to the Prime Minister— (I am quoting the words):—threatening a fast and saying : “This fast will cease if the British Government will revise their decision and withdraw their scheme of representation for the depressed classes.” Mahatma Gandhi wrote this letter to the Prime Minister threatening a fast and the consequences. Does that date agree with your information ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I have not got the dates here. I take it the dates are accurate. 7491. Sir N. N. Sircar: Will the Secretary of State accept this course ? May I put all these dates in my questions, and, if there is any mistake it can subsequently be pointed out either by communication or by some other means ? Sir Samuel Hoare : Yes. 7492. Sir N. N. Sircar: I am giving the dates. On the 18th August that letter was written by Mahatma Gandhi to the Prime Minister. On the 8th September, 1932, the Prime Minister wrote back to Mahatma Gandhi pointing out that the Prime Minister’s scheme, that is to say, the communal decision, had not separated the depressed classes from the Hindu community. The point is the date ; on the 8th September the Prime Minister tried to reason with Mahatma Gandhi that nothing wrong had been done. On the 15th September, 1932, Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya issued a notification in some of the newspapers calling a Conference to be held at Delhi on the 17th and 18th September. The invitation as it appeared in the Press was stated to be “To a few friends.” That is the 18th September, 1932. On the 16th September, 1932, another announcement was made by the same gentleman, Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya, in the Press that the venue had been changed from Delhi to Bombay, and, on the 20th September, 1932, the fast which later on was described as the fast unto death, began. On the 24th September the condition of Mahatma Gandhi was announced to be very serious, and on the 25th September, 1932, the Pact was singned. These are the dates I am giving to you. You can subsequently either correct them or accept them ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes. 7493. Sir N. N. Sircar: in my next question I am giving you some other dates, and I will not press for an answer if you are not prepared with an answer just now, but I am only indicating my case broadly because I shall call witnesses on these points to prove these facts. The Pact was signed at Poona on the 25th September, 1932. In this Pact there are many signatories. I do not want to read out all the names. There is no signatory representing the Bengal Hindus, and the very next day, on the 26th September, 1932, at Delhi, at 11 o’clock, the Home Member announced the acceptance of the

764 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Pact by His Majesty’s Government, and he said : “His Majesty’s Government has learned with great satisfaction that an agreement has been reached between the leaders of the depressed classes and the rest of the Hindu community.” That was the very next day it was announced in the Assembly. These are the dates if you will kindly check them. May I take it, judging by those, as also by your answers which you were pleased to give yesterday, that the Government here was under the impression that an agreement had been reached between the leaders of the depressed classes and the rest of the Hindu community ? That must have been your impression ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I will answer your question when you have finished it. 7494. Sir N. N. Sircar: I have finished this question. Sir Samuel Hoare: The Government, rightly or wrongly, have, under the terms of paragraph 4 of their original Communal Award, accepted the Poona Pact as an All-India agreement between the parties concerned, that is to say, between the depressed classes and other Hindus. Everyone in public life in India must have known that the negotiations from which the Poona Pact emerged were in progress, and it was to be presumed that any interested parties would take steps to secure that their views were not overlooked. It is perhaps not without significance (and I would draw the attention of the Committee to this fact) that no protest from Bengal sees to have come for a considerable time after the announcement of the Pact. Indeed, during the course of the discussions we received scores of telegrams in favour of the Pact; not a telegram against it, and, amongst those scores of telegrams, I remember offhand a telegram from a very distinguished Hindu in Bengal, Sir Rabindranath Tagore. I do not know when protests first began to be made in Bengal, and I cannot trace that any representations were made to His Majesty’s Government until something like three months after their acceptance of the Poona Pact. The Government expresses no opinion on the merits of the Pact in relation to Bengal. They would, of course, be perfectly ready to accept any modification in respect of Bengal reached by mutual agreement between the parties concerned, but the Government, as a Government, is precluded by the terms of its original communal award, from itself taking part in any negotiations towards that end. 7495. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: What was the nature of the telegram sent by Sir Rabindranath Tagore ? Did he approve of the Pact ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Urging the Government to accept the Pact. Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru: May I, Sir Samuel Hoare, tell you and the Committee one thing with regard to this matter ? Both Mr. Jayakar and I happened to be in Poona for about four or five days during the progress of these negotiations. I have a very distinct recollection that telegrams were received from Bengali Hindus. I, personally, received a telegram from two or three important Bengali Hindus. I have not got those telegrams here, but I will further add that Sir Rabindranath did pay a visit to Mr. Gandhi