Vol. 2 · pages 786–790

765 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS in jail at the time or shortly after the opening of the fast. That is my recollection. I am speaking subject to correction. Sir Hari Singh Gour: He did. Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru: There was some sort of ceremony held. I left Poona immediately after the signing of the Pact; all this happened after I left. Probably, Mr. Jayakar was there, and he will be able to make a statement. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: I was not there when Sir Rabindranath Tagore called : I was not present in Poona. 7496. Sir N. N. Sircar: Is Sir Samuel Hoare aware that Sir Rabindranath Tagore is a Brahmin ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I take it from Sir Nripendra Sircar that that is so. The indisputable fact, however, is that for many weeks we received almost countless telegrams and letters from India urging the acceptance of the Pact and not a single protest against it. 7497. Sir N. N. Sircar: I will not go into minute details, because I am waiting for evidence to be called upon this point, but have you scrutinised those telegrams ? Whether they were all coming from Congress people ? Sir Samuel Hoare: They were all coming from Hindus, and I would not for a moment accept the suggestion that they came exclusively from Congress Hindus. 7498. Sir N. N. Sircar: As regards the sufficient protest not having been made at or about the time and telegrams coming from some people, may I put this situation to you. that when Mahatma Gandhi uttered that threat, it was not a question merely of a large section of the Hindu being ground down. Is it not right to say that was the position also of His Majesty’s Government ? Sir Samuel Hoare: That never entered into our minds at all. 7499. Sir N. N. Sircar: Let me put it to you, if it strikes you now in that way. When he said : “I am going to fast myself to death unless the British Government do this, that, and the other”, you did not point out to him section 508 of the Indian Penal Code and say : “This is a crime but we propose now to let you out of jail.” Was not that His Majesty’s Government’s understanding also, because of overriding considerations, because if the man had been allowed to carry out his fast, tremendous consequences might have arisen. Therefore, you not merely acquiesced in what was an offence under the Indian Penal Code, but your offer was that a man who ought to be kept in jail for other reasons, should now come out into the open. I am putting to you this ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Sir Nripendra Sircar can rest assured that we did not in any way act under any sort of threat or in any atmosphere of emergency. The only aspect of the question to which we looked was this : Was the agreement reached an agreement such as we had contemplated under the communal decision judged by all the evidence that was available to us ?

766 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Then, and for many weeks subsequently, it seemed to us quite conclusive that it was such an agreement. 7500. Sir N. N. Sircar: I think you are aware that a representation was made to the Prime Minister by a letter from me in December, 1932, enclosing certain telegrams which had come here in November from members of the Bengal Council ? Sir Samuel Hoare : I am aware that Sir Nripendra Sircar has taken a very close interest in the question from start to finish. Sir N. N. Sircar: I sent that letter on to the Prime Minister as requested by the Members of the Council, and you will find that before I sent to the Prime Minister this telegram of protest from the 25 Members of the Bengal Council, that Bengal are not represented, and so on, it was shown to Dr. Ambedkar, who sent a telegram to Bombay to find out what their reply to this telegram was. I thought it fair to show it to him, so that he could get his version from Bombay, and this is the reply which he got. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I assure I did not do anything of the sort, if Sir Nripendra Sircar will forgive me. Sir Nripendra Sircar represented that he showed to me a certain telegram and asked me to get certain information about it from Bombay. I did not do anything of the sort. Sir N. N. Sircar: I have got the copy which was handed over to me by Dr. Ambedkar, and I will read to you the reply which he got. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It is not a reply ; it is an independent telegram sent to me. Sir N. N. Sircar: The point is the contents of the telegram, which said that the Bengal Hindus are bound by reason of their default in not appearing at Bombay, that is to say, it was put on the ground that we were bound because we had not taken part in the Pact. I think you must have found that in the telegrams that were sent to the Prime Minister. Sir Samuel Hoare: I think it is very unfortunate that those telegrams were only sent in December, and were not sent when the negotiations were actually in progress. 7501-2. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The telegram was in November. It was sent in December, because I was waiting for the replies, and so on, and the Bengal Council rnet for the first time after these negotiations in November. As soon as they met, 25 members sent this telegram, or representation, to the Prime Minister. I only wanted to point out to you that whatever may be said, it has been the case that Bengal has gone by default. The case of Bengal has never been made, even in that telegram. Now the next matter to which I draw your attention, is a very short one. Does Sir Samuel Hoare agree with the view that the situation which has been created as the result of the Poona Pact and the communal decision, will lead to very terrible and serious consequences in Bengal ? Sir Samuel Hoare: No, I do not think. Sir N. N. Sircar: I do.

767 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS 7503. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is it your opinion that if the vastly preponderating majority of seats of the Muhammadans, 119 seats, are reduced by 10 or 12 seats, that will lead to terrible consequences in Bengal ? Sir N. N. Sircar: I do not accept the phrase, “vastly preponderating majority”, nor do 1 think that the result will be disastrous. ***** 7509. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: My Lord Chairman, may I have your attention for a moment to make a very brief statement with regard to a question or two that was put by Sir Nripendra Sircar, in view of the fact that he may not be here when my turn comes ? Sir Nripendra Sircar said that he got a telegram during the course of the Third Round Table Conference last year and that he showed it to me and that I made inquiries with regard to that telegram, and that I got a certain telegram in reply to that. The point that I would like to make clear so that Sir Nripendra may have an opportunity to correct me if I am mis-stating anything is this : The telegram which I got was not a telegram in reply to any inquiry that I made. Sir N. N. Sircar: I may cut the matter short. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I just want to say a word. Chairman : Please let Dr. Ambedkar make his statement. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The telegram to Sir Nripendra Sircar was published in the Indian papers and when the members of the Anti-Untouchability Board that was established by Mahatma Gandhi after his fast was over, learned that this telegram was sent to Sir Nripendra Sircar protesting against the Poona Pact, they, of’ their own accord, sent me the telegram to which Sir Nripendra Sircar has made reference. It was not in reply to any inquiry that I made. The next point I want to bring to the notice of the Committee is that when Sir Nripendra Sircar showed me the telegram he got from his Bengal friends protesting against the Poona Pact, he told me that all he was going to do was to send that telegram to the Prime Minister, without any comment, for his information. On the day before he left he very kindly sent me a copy of the letter which he addressed to the Prime Minister. In that letter I found that Sir Nripendra Sircar had not only forwarded the letter to the Prime Minister, but had urged upon the Prime Minister to make an inquiry as to whether the Bengal caste-Hindus were represented at the time when the Poona Pact was settled. In view of that I also immediately wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, a copy of which I shall present to the Committee when my turn comes, in which I also forwarded the telegrams which I had received, and I also stated that the fact mentioned in the telegram that the Bengal caste-Hindus were not represented when the Poona Pact was made was not correct to my knowledge, because I knew, as a fact, that several members from the Bengal caste-Hindus were present when the Pact was made, that they had had conversations with me and had presented me to come to terms. That is all I want to say at this stage. *****

768 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES †7533. Sir Mirza Ismail : What Lord Lothian said was that the Legislature which appoints the Government will appoint the members to the Upper House. Once these members are elected by the Legislature they cease to have any responsibility. They can express their own views, and they do not go and consult the Legislature on every point which comes up before the Federal Government. Once they are elected they are independent, but what the Federal Government would like to know would be the views of the Government of the Province. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar; The Government of the day of the Province ? Sir Mirza Ismail: Of the day. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: And if there were a change of Government of the Province there would be a change of representation at the Centre ? Sir Mirza Ismail: At the Centre. If you want to prevent this extreme provincialism that is already developing in India this seems to me to be the best way of doing it. You have already the popular element in the Lower House ; from the democratic standpoint there should be no objection to it because of the democratic Governments in the Provinces. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Send them with mandates to vote on a particular issue. Mr. M. R. Jayakar: If this scheme were adopted, would it not come to this, that although normally the life of the Provincial Legislature would end in five years and, as Mr. Zafrulla Khan pointed out, the life of the Upper House would be seven years, there must be necessarily one change in the personnel. ***** ‡7746. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I would like to ask the Secretary of State whether the Instruments of Accession that would be passed by the different States on entering the Federation would find a place in the Constitution Act? Sir Samuel Hoare: The answer is : No, they would not. 7747. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: How would it be possible, supposing a dispute arose in a Federal Court, for the Court to determine whether any particular subject which was the subject-matter of dispute was within the competence of the Federation ? Sir Samuel Hoare: I imagine—here I speak as a layman—they would take into account the treaty, just as they take into account treaties now. Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru : Yes. 7748. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: But it would not be part of the Constitution Act? Sir Samuel Hoare: No ; it would not be in the Constitution Act; neither are the treaties now in any Act of Parliament, yet (Sir Tej Sapru and other Indians will correct me if I am wrong) treaties have been constantly taken into account. † Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 25th July 1933, p. 899, ‡ Ibid., p. 901,

769 EVIDENCE : RIGHT HON. SIR SAMUEL HOARE AND OTHERS Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru: Yes. Treaties are part of the municipal law everywhere. ***** †8102. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: May I draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the fact that under Proposal 70 of the White Paper, the Governor has the special responsibility to secure the execution of orders lawfully issued by the Governor-General ? Sir Samuel Hoare : Yes. 8103. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: If the Governor-General issued any orders with respect to finance which required the Provincial Governments to execute them, the Governor would see that they were executed ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes; in the field of Federal taxation that would be so. 8104. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Any orders issued by the Federation which required that they were to be executed by the Provincial Government, there is a special responsibility on the Governor to see that those orders are executed ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, Orders issued by the Governor-General. Sir Hari Singh Gour: Lawfully issued. 8105. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Lawfully issued, of course. Another question. In that section of the White Paper proposals which deals with the administrative relations of the Provinces and the Centre—I am speaking offhand—I think provision is made that whether the Provincial agency will be utilised by the Centre in carrying out the administration of Central subjects is a matter for the Province : it may employ its own agency ? Sir Samuel Hoare: Yes, I have always hoped, judging from the experience of other Federations, that we should duplicate as little as possible administrations, and speaking generally, it is much better that the Provincial administration should carry out the directions of the Federation within the Federal field rather than that you should duplicate these administrations all over India. 8106. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: What I was trying to point out was this. that if the Provincial Governments turned out to be recalcitrant and not amenable to the control of the Central Government, the Centre is not bound to employ the agency of the Province and can employ their own agency in the administration of Central subjects ? Sir Samuel Hoare: That is so. ***** ‡8138. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I want to suggest that the standard of administration in Bengal is low because Bengal has not been able to raise sufficient revenue by reason of the Permanent Settlement. It is another way of stating the same thing ? Sir Samuel Hoare : It is one of the reasons, but we have to accept the fact that the Permanent Settlement is there. †Minutes of Evidence, Vol. II-B, 27th July 1933, p. 945. ‡Ibid., 28th July 1933, p. 990.