Vol. 15 · pages 986–990

967PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES equal powers. The Lower House has the same power as the Upper House, and all the States have equal representation in the Upper House without reference to population. In the Senate they have equal representation. Here, what is the position ? Under our Constitution, there is no such equality at all. Every State has not the same power, and the Upper Chamber has no powers at all, so far as finance is concerned. It may happen—it is very likely—that the States in the northern area may combine together on an issue on which the southern States of India do not agree. What is likely to happen in that event ? In that event, the north, if I may say so, will over-ride every proposition in which the southern States are interested. If that happens, I fear that there maybe civil war. I may be using some exaggerated sentiment, but such a thing has happened. It has happened in the United States. In the United States the origin of the Civil War was this inequality of power. In the earlier stages it was agreed that up to a certain latitude the slave States might exist but that there would be no slavery above that latitude. It happened, I believe, that California was at one time a territory; it was not a State. It was later on decided to make it a State. The Southern States quarrelled, because they felt that if California became a State, it would acquire the power of voting and that it would change the balance of voting. Notwithstanding that, the Northern States decided to convert California into a State. Thereby they got a majority of voting, and then with this majority of voting, they decided not to have slavery in the United States at all, which affected the political and economic interests of the Southern States. At once, the Southern States resisted. They said, ‘We would not remain part of the Union, if you are going to exercise that power for the abolition of slavery.” Then, there was the Civil War. There are people here who fear the influence of the northern people. One important example yon could recently see was……. Shri Kailasb. Bihari Lall (Bihar): Because the Southern States wanted slavery.

968 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The hon. Member is right. Mr. Rajagopalachari had long been expressing this fear that this Union will break down. Hon. Members: No. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : There are plenty of slaves who keep it up. Shri R. U. Agnibhoj (Madhya Pradesh): Independence is kept by the united people, not by slaves. Therefore this country will have its independence through unity and not through slavery. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am very glad to have your assurance. Shri R. U. Agnibhoj : Thank you. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Now there are plenty of things one can imagine on which the issue may be between the north and the south and if that happens and if the matter is taken to bloody conclusions, well, all the efforts that we have made in order to bring about unity will have been in vain. I therefore suggest that the United Provinces should be cut down into three provinces, Bihar should be cut down into two and Madhya Pradesh also should be cut down into two. Shri R. U. Agnibhoj : You should have 600 States. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Nothing is lost. It does not affect the linguistic principle at all. They all have the same language. What does it matter if U. P. is divided into three States, or if Madhya Pradesh is divided into two ? I see no difference at all. My friend Mr. Pant, I remember to have read once his statement, had stated that he would have no objection to dividing the U. P. but he has never said a word about it in the course of the debate nor has he voluntarily suggested this self-sacrifice on his part. But I give a warning, I know the house is not going to listen to me, but it is my duty to say what I feel. With regard to Marathwada, I have very strong feelings and I very vehemently resist the United Maharashtra. I can speak more authoritatively about the Maharashtra than I can speak about other areas. What has

969PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES been the state of affairs of ths United Maharashtra ? In Maharashtra I find that only that Marathas from the Satara district or that area are able to capture political offices. The rest of the people are just where they are. I do not understand how a Minister drawn from Satara can have any interest in for instance, the Ratnagiri district. I do not think any Minister has ever visited the Ratnagiri district. An Hon. Member: So many have. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: For the sake of drawing allowances, I think. Not for doing service. An Hon. Member: Still they have visited. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Areas and areas are completely neglected, what interest has a Maratha from the Satara district in the Ratnagiri district? What interest can a Brahmin for instance from Mahavidarbha have in the Satara district ? I do not quite understand this mentality of huddling together. Is it like Bharat Milap ? When Ram came from Lanka, Bharat embraced him. What for—for brotherly love and affection. Nothing more than that. Why not allow such areas to develop their own interests, to pay attention to their own interests ? Besides, as my friend Mr. Pant knows—I may be wrong—I suppose he is the last of the veterans. Who will succeed him— can he tell me ? Who will succeed him as a Minister ? I don’t see anybody. Certainly I don’t see anybody in the rank and file of the Congress. If any Minister of the towering personality of my friend Mr. Pant has to be looked for, it would have to be someone outside the Congress ranks. I am sure of that. Shri H. P. Saksena: You, for instance. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I shall die pretty soon. Don’t enrol me. This country, by this kind of thing, is going to dogs. Our primary concern is to raise and train politicians so that they. can learn to take responsibility upon their own shoulders. We ought not to sit tight oh one thing for ever. We ought to allow other people to take responsiblity while we are alive so that if they commit any mistake, we may rectify it in time. If you have U. P. divided into three provinces, you will have probably

970 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES 30 ministers trained in the art of administration, while if you have one, you will have just 10 ministers—nothing more than that. The same thing will happen in Bihar and the same thing will happen in these big provinces. Therefore, in my judgement, there is a great disadvantage to this country in keeping these large provinces as they are. My Friend may perhaps listen to this argument if he does not listen to the other. His argument, if I have heard correctly, is’ Oh ! in a country where Ram and Krishna were both born, do not divide it.’ That is the argument. I think, he used sometimes. But that is not an argument of a statesman. Now Sir, I was saying about the Marathwada people, I mean the Maharashstrians, that the same thing is true of this Maharashtra. Maharashtra, except for a few Brahmins, is politically not upto the mark, I am sorry to say. I am not speaking with any personal venom of any kind. I know very well that I have had my full share of public life and I do not desire to compete with any one for more. But I like that my State should be well administered and in order that it may be well administered, it must have competent people. Now in a united Maharashtra you will not have more than five or six ministers. Some of them may be Brahmins and some of them may be non-Brahmins. Is that going to be enough for the future of Maharashstra ? Here you have a territory called Marathwada which has just been released from the reins of the Nizam. But you have only to just go and see the area in order to see its wretchedness, the condition of the people, with no clothes, hardly any food, no education. There is no primary school even there. I was told that there was one primary shcool in which there was only one chair and all the teachers ran early in the morning in order to capture that chair so as not to allow any other teacher to sit on it. I like to know whether this most backward area which has no irrigation, no food, no clothes, no school or anything of that kind, will fare better ? For some reason or other, the Nizam spent all his love and affection on other people, not on Marathwada. I like to know whether my friend Kaka Gadgil, if he become the Chief Minister of United Maharashtra would pay attention to the condition of the people of Marathwada or whether he would pay his attention

971PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES to Poona and its inhabitants. Let us not talk nonsense. Let us see plain things as they are. Why not allow Marathwada to have a separate province or State and let Marathwada rule itself? It knows its interests best. I have been connected with Marathwada for the simple reason that I established a college there. But it is not a flourishing college and I am every year bearing a huge loss. I know that the Marathwada people would look after themselves much better than any of the Bombay people who talk about them. Particularly there is no education there at all. There is the danger that Marathwada may be attached to the Poona University. God only knows what will happen. Shri B. B. Sharma (Uttar Pradesh): So you believe in God? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I cannot hear what you say. If you want a reply from me, you must talk audibly. Shri B. B. Sharma: Whose God is that ? Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor (Uttar Pradesh): Don’t hear inconvenient questions. Shri B. B. Sharma: Who is your God ? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: To me the people are God. Sir, in the case of Marathwada it is absolutely necessary that they should have a separate autonomous body to look after their education and they should not be tied down hand and foot to the Poona University. We won’t have that at all. There is one other point to which I would like to refer. As I have said, I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that there are many holes in this federation and it may crack. We are a cracking society. We have no union. We have no unity and any time this whole thing may crack. Therefore, we should, in time, take steps to see that it does not crack. I suggested one way and that was to reduce the northern provinces to smaller areas so that the southern people may not suffer any heavy pressure. I also suggest another remedy and that remedy is to have two capitals for this country. I suggest that