Vol. 17, Part I · pages 181–185

156 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES “The leaders accepted his suggestion; and Jayakar, Sapru, Birla, Rajagopalachari and Dr. Rajendra Prasad left for Poona by the midnight train on Tuesday. On September 21 Gandhi was removed at noon to the courtyard just near the entrance of Yeravda Jail, and Sardar Patel and Gandhi’s Secretary Pyarelal were allowed to sit near his cot. At noon Sapru telephoned to Dr. Ambedkar from Poona asking him to come to Poona immediately.”1 “Dr. Ambedkar in the interview with the Times of India, before leaving for Poona on Wednesday the 21st September 1932 said : “I have received a message from Poona telling me that Mr. Gandhi wishes to see me and Mr. Rajah with regard to the proposal which I submitted to the Committee appointed by the Conference last night”. “I have accepted the invitation but I have made it clear that I will have nothing to do in the way of negotiation with Mr. Rajah and his party, and if Mr. Gandhi wishes to talk with them, he should do so separately. My reason for saying this is that the dispute is really between me and my party on the one hand and Mr. Gandhi on the other”. “Besides I do wish to mark my emphatic disapproval of the policy of the Congress and the Hindu Mahasabha of creating leaders for the Depressed Class for their own purposes and by there own propaganda and then trying to foist them on the Depressed Classes. In this there is nothing personal against Mr. Rajah. I am starting to-night.” Another Visit to Yeravda Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru and Mr. Jayakar who arrived in Poona by train visited Mr. Gandhi on Wednesday in the jail at 7-30 a.m. and remained in Conference with him until after 10 a.m. On leaving they said that they anticipated returning again tomorrow morning. 1 : Keer. P210.

157ROLE OF ......................... INDIAN DEMOCRACY A Statement issued after the interview says :— The deputation consisting of Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru, Mr. Jayakar, Mr. Rajagopalachari, Babu Rajendra Prasad and Mr. G. D. Biria had a long interview with Mr. Gandhi this morning when they explained to him the scheme which had been evolved at yesterday’s consultations. The interview proved to be quite hopeful, but Mr. Gandhi reserved his final opinion until he had held further consultations in the matter with friends including Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. M. C. Rajah. The deputationists are, therefore, staying behind at Poona for another day. Sir T. B. Sapru, with whom the scheme originated, was very hopeful that it would be acceptable to Mr. Gandhi and that thus a solution of the problem would be found. The deputationists found Mr. Gandhi well and quite cheerful.” 1 “Dr. Ambedkar left by the midnight train.* On the same day Rajah and Malaviya, too, left Bombay for Poona. On Thursday morning, i.e. on 22nd September 1932, Gandhi had a talk with Dr. Rajendra Prasad and Rajagopalachari and said he did not like that election to some of the reserved seats should be both by primary and secondary election system and to some only by Joint Electorates. He said the primary and secondary election system should be applied to all seats alike. This was related to Dr. Ambedkar at the National Hotel. Again the atmosphere became heated. Some of the leaders suggested that in the meanwhile they should send a cable to the British Premier requesting him to cancel the Separate Electorates for the Depressed Classes.” 2 On the same day “at 9 A.M. Sir Tejbahadur Sapru and Bar. Jaikar met Dr. Ambedkar at National Hotel and apprised him about the above facts.” 3 “But Dr. Ambedkar stoutly and pointedly told them that he would be prepared to lose separate electorates which the British Premier had invested them with, provided he was given a concrete 1 : The Times of India, dated 22nd September 1932. 2:Keer,P. 210. 3 : Janta, 1st October 1932. * Dr. Ambedkar was accompanied by Dr. Sotanki—Editors.

158 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES picture of the substitutes and added that he was not a man to run after a mirage. The atmosphere of dullness gave place to grim despair. At noon Jayakar, Sapru and Malaviya saw Gandhi in the Jail. They were followed by P. Baloo and Rajah, who promised Gandhi that they would secure an agreement that would satisfy him. Late in the evening Dr. Ambedkar, accompanied by Jayakar, Birla, Chunilal Mehta and Rajagopalachari, went to meet Gandhi in the jail. It was the gravest political crisis. When the party entered the prison court, Gandhi was lying on a white iron-cot with a jail mattress on it, under the thick shade of a low mango tree, and Sardar Patel and Sarojini Naidu sat near Gandhi. Near the cot were bottles of water, sodabicarb and salt. When Dr. Ambedkar approached the cot, there was an echoless silence and a breathless eagerness. Would the entangling silence move Dr. Ambedkar ? Jayakar had foretold that Dr. Ambedkar’s intransigence would collapse when he saw Gandhi. Would the entrancing sadness in the atmosphere deepened by the twilight inveigle Dr. Ambedkar ? Dr. Ambedkar was now in the presence of the enveloping personality of Gandhi who had cast his spell on powerful men and drowned them in the flood of his magnetic mysticism. Amidst the fierce whirlwind raging outside the jail and the entangling silence prevailing inside, Dr. Ambedkar was calm and collected. A lesser man would have been buried alive in such a cyclone of happenings. Dr. Ambedkar loved his people more than his life and cared more for the happiness of his people than for his own. Gandhi was weak. He lay in his bed. The talk began. Sapru narrated to Gandhi the whole story. Malaviya put the Hindu point of view. Then in a soft, slow flow Dr. Ambedkar began. He said in a low voice:” 1 “Mahatmaji, you have been very unfair to us.” “It is always my lot to appear to be unfair,” replied Gandhi, “I cannot help it.” 1 :Keer, Pp. 210-12.

159ROLE OF ......................... INDIAN DEMOCRACY The interview was protracted and Dr. Ambedkar did most of the talking, while Gandhi lay weak and still in his bed. “I want my compensation,” Dr. Ambedkar urged repeatedly. “I am with you in most of the things you say,” assured Gandhi, “but you say you are interested in my life.” Dr. Ambedkar :— “Yes, Mahatmaji, I am. And if you devote yourself entirely to the welfare of the Depressed Classes, you would then become our hero.” Gandhi :— “Well, if you are interested in my life, you know what you have got to do to save that life. Your position, from what you tell me, is like this. You want adequate price and compensation before you can agree to forgo what you have already secured under the Premier’s decision. You say that the double system of voting proposed by you gives sufficient scope to the other party to rise, while the seats to be filled under the Panel System are designed to satisfy the aspirations of your group. What worries me, however, is this. Why do you propose the Panel System only for some seats ? Why do you not propose it for all the seats ? If the panel system is good for one section, it should be good even for the whole of the Depressed Classes. That is how I regard the question. You are ‘Untouchable’ by birth, but I am now going to make, what might appear as an astounding claim for a man in my position, I am an ‘Untouchable’ by adoption, and as such more of an ‘Untouchable’ in mind than you. Any scheme that is really good should subserve the interests not of this group or of that, but of the Depressed Class as a whole. That is the criterion by which I judge this scheme. My first suggestion to you is that, if the Panel System is good for any section of the Depressed Classes, it should be extended to all the Depressed Class seats. I cannot stand the idea that your community should either in theory or in practice be separated from me. We must be one and indivisible. As I have told the other friends, I feel no difficulty in accepting your scheme of electing a panel for a few seats. I want to make a present of it to you for all the seats. I confess I do not like the scheme as it stands. It will divide your community, and would give my life to prevent that, just as I am giving my life to prevent the disruption of the whole Hindu Community. (Epic Fast Pp. 209-210)” 1 1 : Reprinted, Khairmode, Vol. 5-Pp. 45-46.

160 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES “Dr. Ambedkar accepted Gandhi’s suggestion. The interview ended, and the leaders started to settle other details regarding the number of men in the panel, number of total seats in the provincial assemblies, duration of the primary system, duration of the reserved seats and distribution of posts.” 1 (The Epic Fast. Pp. 209-10).” When Dr. Ambedkar and Dr. Solanki saw Mr. Gandhi, they were accompanied by most of the leaders then present in Poona. “Friday, the 23rd September, dawned. For hours hot discussions raged over the number of candidates required to make the panel. Then there was the question of seats. Dr. Ambedkar demanded 197 seats in the Provincial Assemblies and the leaders reduced the number to 126. Negotiations dragged on. Hours rushed by. After ten hours of discussion, some points were referred to Gandhi and he upheld Dr. Ambedkar’s points. But still the negotiations seemed to break down on the question of duration of primary election and referendum to decide the duration of reserved seats. Dr. Ambedkar said that the system of Primary Election should terminate at the end often years; but he insisted that the question of reserved seats should be settled by referendum of the Depressed Classes at the end of further fifteen years. The leaders’ opinion was that the evil of reserved seats and separation would be perpetuated by making its removal dependent upon the will of the Depressed Classes. Dr. Ambedkar’s insistent demand for a referendum at the end of twenty-five years created a furore among the caste Hindu circles. Dr. Ambedkar frankly told them that he refused to believe that Untouchability would be no more in the next twenty years or so, and therefore he said that faced with the sword of Damocles, the Caste Hindus would be compelled to change their inhuman attitude to the Untouchables” 2 “ ... Dr. Ambedkar desired Gandhi to agree to a referendum of ten years. Gandhi was slightly better and he spoke very slowly but deliberately. “Your logic is irrefutable,” he said. “But let the referendum be at the end of five years. Surely, five years is a sufficient period to prove the bona-fides of the Caste 1 : Keer, P. 212. 2 : Keer, Pp. 212-213.